Scoring documentary, on deadlime, need help please.

nbiehl

nbiehl

New member
Hi,

I'm producing some original music for a documentary. I've been gathering pieces for a home studio for a while, and decided this project was the reason to put it together.

I have some experience with this from radio and TV work and musical performance. I'm familiar with the basics of engineering and mixing, but there are some important gaps in my knowledge I'm hoping to get some advice on.

My main questions:

  1. Order of Operations
    I don't know anything about the order of operations for a high quality mix. Do you EQ individual tracks, then mix levels, then arrange stereo field? Do you rough out levels and pans, then EQ for blend and fine tune everything else?​
  2. Stereo Field
    My music is often very layered with multiple instruments popping up for short themes. There is also a lot of instrumental harmony, some of it slow and orchestral for backup, and some of it as the main theme for the cut. I don't even know where to start arranging this stuff in the stereo field.
  3. Mastering
    I don't even know if this is a concern for this project. I'll deliver final mixes as wave files, and they will likely never see an audio CD, so consistent level from track to track is not as critical. Any special considerations I need to take with the final mixes for editing with video?

This is a low budget, local film, and they are not expecting gold from me, but I am very excited (and a little surprised, frankly) about the quality of the songs I've composed, so I want to be able to mix it as well as i can right now.

Normally I'd just search the archives myself (or pick up a book) but this is a time sensitive job with a number of people involved, and any delays on my part could hold up the entire project, so any advice you could give me would be very appreciated.

Thanks!
 
Additional info

Gear:

Soundcraft 200 console
Delta 66 interface
Cool Edit Pro (left over from my days as a radio guy. I know it's probably outdated, but it's what I've got and I'm broke.)
Yamaha studio monitors (I don't know the model, on loan from a friend.)

I've got an AT 4033 and an AT 4040, plus the usual assortment of Shure mics for gigging.

I've got some inexpensive outboard processing stuff available (compressor, graphic EQ, parametric EQ, reverb) but I had planned to use the software's processing for simplicity.

All instruments are acoustic. I'm recording myslef playing them. At most I will be recording 2 tracks simultaneously to blend 2 mic sounds.

Instruments:
violin
viola
upright bass (bowed, slapped and plucked)
mandolin
dreadnought guitar
cheap Sears type guitar (Stella)
tenor guitar
tenor banjo
open back banjo
maybe some small percussion stuff if it sound right.

Anything I've forgotten?
 
Wow...

Those are not really generalized questions with quick and dirty answers available...

Simplest answer: "Rough out levels and pans, then EQ for blend and fine tune everything else".

A lot of mixing engineers start with a 'throw up the faders' initial approach and let the music tell THEM what to do next. But that's pretty much like saying: 'to sculpt a priceless statue, just chip away the stone you don't want'. :rolleyes: Lot of hours and experience goes into it.

Best thing would be for you to read the sticky at the top of this forum and glean from the info provided there...

Being that you're working on a deadline and not wanting to hold everything up while learning, perhaps for this venture it would be best for you to provide the skills you are best at (composing/performing) and outsource for the rest (recording/mixing)?

That way you can watch and get hands-on experience for your next venture...

Just my .02

Good luck!

:)
 
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I don't know anything about...
I don't even know where to start arranging this stuff in the stereo field...
this is a time sensitive job...
Click to expand...

BentRabbit said:
Being that you're working on a deadline and not wanting to hold everything up while learning, perhaps for this venture it would be best for you to provide the skills you are best at (composing/performing) and outsource for the rest (recording/mixing)?...
Click to expand...
Yep . :)
 
Just as I'd feared

Thanks for the reply, BR, I'll try that order tonight.

Unfortunately, there is no money in the project's budget for outsourcing the mixing.

This is my first time doing anything like this, and it started out a bit simpler than it's become, but the instant I set up that basement studio I unleashed a monster.

Now any time I get a melody in my head, I just pick up an instrument and record it. Then I add a bass track, some supporting instruments...before I know it, I've got a composition that just worked itself out on the fly. I had 4 songs sketched out before I'd even finished setting up my "studio."

Tracking has been effortless. Easier than breathing. But now I've got a bunch of raw songs in the box, and I'm worried that I don't know how to get them out in a form that resembles the sound in my head in any way.

Like I said, the producers (friends of mine) aren't expecting gold from me, but I'd like to do my work some justice. I'm not going to drag their deadline down, so I was looking for any advice I could get to get the best product in the time I have left.
 
nbiehl said:
But now I've got a bunch of raw songs in the box, and I'm worried that I don't know how to get them out in a form that resembles the sound in my head in any way.
Click to expand...


You could load your tracks up on a file sharing site and let people here mix them for you. That happens every so often.
 
I agree with Bent Rabbit: get the levels roughed out first, along with the panning. Don't take too long with this, get it done quickly. Make sure the music is consistent from beginning to end, while of course leaving room for the natural dynamics of the music.

Once you've got the levels sitting about right then eq any trouble areas. After that, put on some judicious reverb and maybe a touch or compression to tie it all together.

Make sure you listen at different volume levels. Especially important is very low level volume listening. Your music will probably end up under dialogue at some points, so even if it is soft you want the listener to be able to hear the whole arrangement. listening at low levels will help that.

Good luck!
 
Thanks Albert

Thanks Albert,

The low volume suggestion already helped me make a decision I wrestled with for a long time yesterday. When I turned down the monitors it became VERY apparent that certain things (bass slaps) stuck WAY out while others almost disappeared.

So, when working in that situation, where I have less room for error on the amplitude scale, would you recommend a more liberal use of the stereo field to give each instrument/group its own space?

I know that's not a question you can answer for every situation, but it seems logical to me. Just want to know if I'm on the right track.
 
Stereo field epiphany

I just had a realization about stereo field. I read a tweakheadz article yesterday that mentioned using light reverb to give the impression of distance to background instruments.

I work in video post production, and I'll often try to mimic human perception with graphics I've made. To give the appearance that something is in the background, I'll reduce the contrast and blur it a little bit. I've heard painters add whites and greys to their background colors to reduce their intensity in order to sell the illusion that the eye can't see them as well.

This seems like a good way to think about locating things in the mix, trying to sell the illusion of space. Am I on the right track? This is probably a no-brainer for experienced hands, but I'd really never thought about how important "blurring" and "reducing contrast" of a sound could be in giving the right impression until now.

If I can approach mixing in the same way I approach the work I do every day, that really cuts it down to size. Does this sound plausible to you?
 
Music for picture is usually panned hard right and left. This is because the actors' voices are panned center. This is very different than an album mix.

If you do a typical music mix, where the important elements are panned center, they will be competing with the dialogue.

Take a listen to well mixed major motion picture soundtracks *on headphones*. The headphones part is very important. Good examples are Francis Ford Coppola's "Dracula", the "Matrix" series, "The Abyss", films like that. They have major scores and are complicated, with lots of sound fx and dialogue, but you can hear everything very clearly. Again, listen on headphones so you can really hear where they placed things.

Even if you don't go extreme hard right and left, make sure to leave space for everything else that will be there.

Also, reverb tends to get swallowed up for some reason. If you put "just the right amount of reverb" on your cues, by the time the piece is broadcast it will sound dry. So generally you need to put a little more reverb on than you think you will. Just a little more reverb for starters, don't go crazy with that.

I'm not sure you want to create the effect of "distance" with reverb unless that is a specific effect needed for the picture. Think of it more as sweetening.
 
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Are you mixing the sound for the project? Are you doing the post-production work? Probably not. A lot of the points made here about how to EQ your mix for dialogue and such will become moot when somebody else is mixing your score into the final project. The director probably won't care if your glorious trombone solo is heard clearly or not if it falls on top of his most important interview.

A documentary score is used mostly to fill in the gaps between dialogue, not to create mood or tension (generally speaking), so don't pull your hair out trying to make sure every nuance is heard.
 
SonicAlbert said:
Music for picture is usually panned hard right and left. This is because the actors' voices are panned center. This is very different than an album mix.

If you do a typical music mix, where the important elements are panned center, they will be competing with the dialogue.

Take a listen to well mixed major motion picture soundtracks *on headphones*. The headphones part is very important. Good examples are Francis Ford Coppola's "Dracula", the "Matrix" series, "The Abyss", films like that. They have major scores and are complicated, with lots of sound fx and dialogue, but you can hear everything very clearly. Again, listen on headphones so you can really hear where they placed things.

Even if you don't go extreme hard right and left, make sure to leave space for everything else that will be there.

Also, reverb tends to get swallowed up for some reason. If you put "just the right amount of reverb" on your cues, by the time the piece is broadcast it will sound dry. So generally you need to put a little more reverb on than you think you will. Just a little more reverb for starters, don't go crazy with that.

I'm not sure you want to create the effect of "distance" with reverb unless that is a specific effect needed for the picture. Think of it more as sweetening.
Click to expand...

Wow, this is really good info. Stuff I would never have thought about before. Not like I'm scoring for a movie, but some of my instrumentals ended up on a sailing dvd and I never thought about panning.
 
Thanks

Thanks for all of the info, folks. So helpful.

The MOST helpful thing right now has been to listen to a bunch of different reference tracks through my reference monitors. All of a sudden I discovered reverb! It also became REALLY apparent that I've got way too much bass, which is probably muddying up everything else.

So, a little smoothing with the 'verb and dialing back the bass, and I feel a lot better about the whole operation.

What amazes me is how shitty many finished CDs sound in reference monitors. Some sound amazing, though. Tchad Blake's engineering on a Richard Thompson CD I have is stunning. Gave me goosebumps.
 
Bass is the difficult thing because of the room you are listening in. I would do some reading in the studio build forum.
 
gcapel said:
Bass is the difficult thing because of the room you are listening in. I would do some reading in the studio build forum.
Click to expand...

I would love to be able to do more with the room, but the fact is I need to get some music out the door. I'm kind of lucky this project. The stuff I make now is not going to be the focus, the flick is, so I've some wiggle room.

Next project I'll get some rigid foam and go to town, but I've got to put the lid on this one. I haven't slept all night or eaten a decent meal since this thing started.
 
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