Saxophone Quartet Recording Question

Ignatius-

Ignatius-

New member
Hey guys... so I'm a undergraduate composition major, and I have some questions about recording a saxophone quartet of mine (that's soprano, alto, tenor, and bari, and the setup is - in a semi circle, from the left - tenor, bari, alto, soprano). I have been reading about micing saxophones, but most of the info is about recording a solo instrument. I am wondering what your guys' opinions about the best mic/placement in the space I will be recording is...

We have a fantastic chapel here (which I will be recording in), and the ambience of the room is amazing (great natural reverb, very warm room). The question I have is how do you guys think I should do it? The microphones I have available are as follows: 2 Neumann TLM-103's, 2 Shure Beta-57's, and 2 Beta-58's. Would it be best to mic the individual instruments, and if so what mics should I match with each instrument? Or should I do some kind of room micing? This is my first attempt at recording a saxophone quartet, so I thought I would for your guys' opinions before I actually do it. Any help would really be appreciated. (Oh, and I am recording to a TASCAM 34b - 4 track w/ noise reduction).
 
Use the two quality Neumann's as an X-Y pair about 8-10ft from the group.

XY Stereo Microphone Technique - WikiRecording

This will let the group sound gel with the room ambiance.

You want to capture the group performance; micing them individually would only get muddy as there will be no sonic separation anyway.

Think of the x-y pair as a pair of human ears - anywhere it sound good to you will sound good to the mics.
You will have to find the right spot in the room to put the players and the mics.
 
Since you have plenty of mics, why not mic up each 'phone separately with the sm's and also the ensemble with the x-y pair suggested above? You then have options during mixing.
 
Do not individually mic. the instruments.

They are an ensemble and you have a great room.

Of the mics you have, I think the best option is to use the two TLM 103s as an ORTF pair.

Listen with your ears to find the best position and put the mics there - then check and hear what they sound like and adjust to suit.

Personally I would have used SDCs, but you don't appear to have those available. My choice would have been between: MS pair, pair of omnis in a Jecklin disk or ORTF cardioids.
 
TLM 103's in ORTF.... absolutely.

They will sound good and will be really easy to rig. Not only that, but they look really nice, and often that just does enough to focus your musicians a little bit more because it looks professional and neat and tidy etc.

Great advice from John there, definately worth moving the around to balance the sax's against each other, and also against the natural reverb of the room.

Enjoy it!!
 
John Willett said:
They are an ensemble and you have a great room.
Click to expand...
.

No argument there. Is it inherently a bad idea to spot-mike in this situation? My thinking is that having the option of mixing in the spot mikes (if needed) to achieve a more desirable balance is OK.
 
I think the best approach is focus on the stereo pair, and make sure they sound really good rather than expecting the spots to be 'ok' and then 'fix it later in the mix' type approach. You WILL get a much better end result if you spend the time you would take to rig spot mics on LISTENING to the stereo pair, adjusting their direction and spacing to get a really good spread of the instruments from left to right in the stereo image (when you pan the two hard left and right), and then adjust how far they are away from the group to balance the reverb against the direct sound.

I understand that it feels like you're putting all your eggs in one basket, but considering the quality of the TLM's this is a safe bet. You will be forced to focus on making the sound 'right' from the very beginning, so you HAVE to listen closely and that will pay dividends.
 
cobaltaudio said:
I understand that it feels like you're putting all your eggs in one basket, but considering the quality of the TLM's this is a safe bet. You will be forced to focus on making the sound 'right' from the very beginning, so you HAVE to listen closely and that will pay dividends.
Click to expand...

I contend that what 'sounds right' can be subjective. I certainly won't argue that spending time perfecting a stereo pair setup isn't ideal, but I think that in this circumstance (student musicians, who may or may not have alot of time to spend on sound checks; remote recording in a room that I may never have tracked in previously, and not having my usual monitors for reference), I personally would hedge my bet and do both. I can think of two occasions where I did as you suggested (no spot mics) and had the performers express their desire to change the the balance at mixdown.
 
Last edited:
One more voice chiming in to say focus on the stereo pair (the TLM-103s). Experiment with moving it further and closer to the quartet. More modern compositions and productions are often on the closer side of things

You might also want to see if you can borrow another good condenser (or two) to put out in the room.
 
clivus said:
I contend that what 'sounds right' can be subjective.
Click to expand...
You are of course entitled to contend whatever you wish, as everyone has their own opinions on, and approach to recording.
It's a really interesting comment you made about the sort of 'belt and braces' approach. My point is that by "hedging your bets" it becomes much too easy to compromise your stereo pair by mixing in the close mics and listening to them. Of course, if you are disciplined enough to not do that, and still make certain the pair is right, then the belt and braces approach isn't detrimental (apart from the extra time it takes to rig).
If it's time that you're worried about when it comes to sound checks and stuff like that, you don't really do sound checks for classical sessions, once the musicians are comfortable with their layout then you tweak your mics around them during the rehearsal until it 'sounds right'. Shouldn't take more than 5-10 mins for a small quartet like this and a single pair.
My approach is to make sure that I am confident in my rig before I take it out, otherwise there's no point taking it. That usually means taking my trusty HD650's which I know inside out with me. That way, I KNOW that what the balance sounds like from listening to the headphones. That way I am confident in getting my main mics right.
 
Last edited:
Bit late catching this thread, but I'll put my two-penneth in for what it's worth. I record my SAAT sax quartet in my small study at home using a Lexicon Lambda interface working into Cubase on a Windows XP PC. The room is 10ft x 18ft and pretty dead accoustically. After quite a bit of experimenting with mic arrangements and mic positioning I've settled for a middle and side set up with a large diagphragm cardioid on the middle channel under a large diaphragm figure 8 side channel, mounted on a boom stand with the mics 6ft from the floor and pointing 45 degrees down at the centre of the quartet which is seated with the sop not quite facing the tenor and the two altos in the midle.

The thing I like about mid/side is that after processing the side channel you've got great control over stereo width and direction. I just love to hear that stereo image come in as the side channel sliders are pulled up. It's completely mono compatible as well, of course, not that that matters much these days.
 
Last edited:
clivus said:
I contend that what 'sounds right' can be subjective. I certainly won't argue that spending time perfecting a stereo pair setup isn't ideal, but I think that in this circumstance (student musicians, who may or may not have alot of time to spend on sound checks; remote recording in a room that I may never have tracked in previously, and not having my usual monitors for reference), I personally would hedge my bet and do both. I can think of two occasions where I did as you suggested (no spot mics) and had the performers express their desire to change the the balance at mixdown.
Click to expand...
you can spot mic all you want but with saxophones, the sound doesn't develop until you get a few feet away.Spot micing is gonna be too close to each sax to sound very good plus they're all gonna pick up ALL the saxes pretty equally. Not really gonna be of a lot of use.
 
Also, the Tascam 34b has four tracks. You can't spot mic each one and have a stereo pair.

My first choice would be Blumlein or baffled omnis. Since that's not an option, near-coincident cards would be next.
 
Lt. Bob said:
you can spot mic all you want but with saxophones, the sound doesn't develop until you get a few feet away.Spot micing is gonna be too close to each sax to sound very good plus they're all gonna pick up ALL the saxes pretty equally. Not really gonna be of a lot of use.
Click to expand...

I am going to fess up and say that I have not ever miked up a sax quartet. I have however gotten good sax tones by placing a mike 6-8" above the bell aimed at the body of the instrument. (a tip from the Shure website). Provided that the players were separated from each other by a distance of several feet, I feel confident that one could get enough separation to differentiate the instruments. I personally would try it in conjunction with the stereo pair and see how it sounds. Missed the bit about having only 4 tracks to work with though--I guess it is a moot point.
 
Peter B said:
Looks like they've spot miced everything here in a surprisingly small studio, but hardly a home recording set up!! I think I'll stick to my M&S.
YouTube - Metropolitan Saxophone Quartet Recording Day 1
Click to expand...

That looks very much like a typical setup I might use. I frequently record combos (guitar,bass fiddle, mandolin, banjo, dobro, and vocals) in a sunday school room at church. We track it all live except for an occasional harmonica or extra guitar overdub.
 
Last edited:
clivus said:
I contend that what 'sounds right' can be subjective. I certainly won't argue that spending time perfecting a stereo pair setup isn't ideal, but I think that in this circumstance (student musicians, who may or may not have alot of time to spend on sound checks; remote recording in a room that I may never have tracked in previously, and not having my usual monitors for reference), I personally would hedge my bet and do both. I can think of two occasions where I did as you suggested (no spot mics) and had the performers express their desire to change the the balance at mixdown.
Click to expand...

Side note:
When I record an ensemble where I know the best results will be had by sticking to a stereo pair, I just carefully explain it to them. I tell them "I will spot mic everything, but if you can perform with good balance, the recording will turn out much better if I don't have to use the spots to rebalance you". Communication is critical to getting the best out of any situation.
 
leddy said:
Side note:
When I record an ensemble where I know the best results will be had by sticking to a stereo pair, I just carefully explain it to them. I tell them "I will spot mic everything, but if you can perform with good balance, the recording will turn out much better if I don't have to use the spots to rebalance you". Communication is critical to getting the best out of any situation.
Click to expand...

I agree. I am not suggesting that mixing in the spots is desirable, if everything goes as planned. i have had players not play at the same level during tracking as they did during the sound check. Having tracked with spot mics helps overcome this problem.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top