Sampled Drums/Replacer?

[TragikRemix]

has anyone here used the drum replacer program, Drumagog? its availible online, a free demo anyway. i tried it out, but i couldnt get great results due to a computer problem that i am having at the moment. it seems pretty cool, but then again, is it "cheating"?

anybody familiar with the midi drum apps; DFH Superior, or BFD? i dont know, i have good drum mics but these drums (obviously) sound so much nicer in my (half-ass) mixes.

so, i guess the question is: do i use the drum apps or just learn how to record them well?

 

[Mistral]

Nobody should tell you what you "should" do.. this is your creation and you should go with your instinct. Plenty of great recordings have been made with midi programmed drums, and many crappy recordings have been made with real mic'd drums, or vice versa.

The real question is, what are YOU most comfortable doing.. If you're a good drummer, and the only thing standing between you and a great recording is some technical issue, then I suggest you figure out exactly what the issue is and solve it. If on the other hand you want to try midi drums with DFH, then go frikkin' nuts with it. Drummers, more than other people, should be able to produce realistic sounding tracks with it.

Drumagog is a decent solution for sample replacement, but first you need multisamples to work with that will do your music justice, and also you need to figure out how the controls work so you don't end up with problems in your processed tracks (double hits, missed hits, etc).. it takes a bit of work, from my experience, to get a good result. So my advice is this, either get your drums sounding good by proper tuning and mic'ing (and being recorded properly to seperate tracks), or go with an all MIDI approach.

 

[TragikRemix]

thanks, very true points.
unfortunatly, i have spent over $2000 on my kit plus over $600 on i think 5 mic's, with the intent to go that way.
im not a great drummer at all, some people i record are, and some aren't (mostly friends just messing around)
i really would like to get a midi kit and use the midi apps, but i cant part with my kit, and i have no room for another! (and my mom will freakin hit me with an iron pipe if i spend another $1200+ on a kit)

 

[Farview]

Drumagog works great once you figure it out.
What you should do will depend on why your drum tracks don't work. If it is simply a sound issue, replacement is great. If it is a dynamic issue, it will be much harder to fix. If you can get Drumagog to trigger properly, you can use it to fix the dynamics. You have to become a power user to do it, but it isn't all that hard.

 

[Mistral]

Oh okay, when you said MIDI I was under the impression you might have intended to manually program drum tracks, for example in SONAR's midi authoring environment. So if you're not good with real drums, you could at least explore that approach yourself.. much cheaper.

As far as recording your friends, what do you think is the problem with the results you get from these recordings?

 

[punkin]

I have DKFH (not the superior version) and I don't like it. The documentation and support is non-existent. It's probably me but I just haven't gotten into programming drums...for me it turns playing music into a tech project.

 

[Mistral]

Well, that's the tradeoff man.. If these things were handed to us on a silver platter, everyone would fancy themselves some kind of guru with little effort to show for it.. the learning curve is what makes it rewarding in the end..

 

[TragikRemix]

Oh okay, when you said MIDI I was under the impression you might have intended to manually program drum tracks, for example in SONAR's midi authoring environment. So if you're not good with real drums, you could at least explore that approach yourself.. much cheaper.

As far as recording your friends, what do you think is the problem with the results you get from these recordings?

the sound is completley---wrong. i really don't know, its just "bad". i was told that i should have a compressor limiter on each track, so i experimented with that. i got all the drums not to peak, but the sound only improves slightly. i think it could be the room, because theres a hollow wall behind the kit, and a low ceiling (basment). maybe on of those drum shields would do something?

in the beginning, my boss (music store) said that i was going to kill myself with recording drums (he uses dfh and a midi kit and is a pro with dfh now-sounds great and real). he said recording drums was the hardest thing i could do. i agree with him now!

 

[punkin]

Well, that's the tradeoff man.. If these things were handed to us on a silver platter, everyone would fancy themselves some kind of guru with little effort to show for it.. the learning curve is what makes it rewarding in the end..

Thats cool...what works for some might not work for others. I guess I've had it too good. With a teenage live-in drummer and a seasoned bandmate/drummer living just around the corner, I just can't get motivated to work it out.

I will say that what sounds I did get from the DKFH were very real sounding. There's a lot in the way of learning curve to put together a plausable realistic sound track though.

Good luck with your search.

 

[Farview]

i should have a compressor limiter on each track, so i experimented with that. i got all the drums not to peak,

You are recording way too hot if you needed a limiter to keep the signal from peaking. Turn it way down.

Recording drums isn't that hard. The main ingredients are a well tuned drumset and a decent drummer that can get a good sound out of the kit. If you have both of those things, it's really hard to screw it up.

How are you micing the drums up? What type of sound are you looking for?

 

[Mistral]

the sound is completley---wrong. i really don't know, its just "bad". i was told that i should have a compressor limiter on each track, so i experimented with that. i got all the drums not to peak, but the sound only improves slightly. i think it could be the room, because theres a hollow wall behind the kit, and a low ceiling (basment). maybe on of those drum shields would do something?

in the beginning, my boss (music store) said that i was going to kill myself with recording drums (he uses dfh and a midi kit and is a pro with dfh now-sounds great and real). he said recording drums was the hardest thing i could do. i agree with him now!

It sounds to me like the room is killing the sound. Put carpets on the walls to dull the echoes. Experiment with mic positions.. You should be getting the drummer to hit the drum while you listen over headphones and move it around to where it sounds the most pleasant. From there it should be gravy..

 

[TuoKaerf]

Next time you track drums, start with this approach-

1. Read this, and make sure your drums sound supurb before any mic gets even near the kit. Try to keep good heads on your kit. I know this gets pricey, but a blown out head sounds, well, like a blown out head.


2. Mic placement, mic placement, mic placement. Its OK to spend 4 hours micing up your kit. Since you have the set in your house, get a friend over and make them sit at the set and hit the snare over and over while you move the mic around until you get a good sound. Once you do, write down where you placed the mic. 9 times out of 10, it will work well in the future with minimal adjustments. Also take notice of phase issues. If your overheads sound all washy, they are most likely out of phase, and when added with the rest of the kit it will just make everything else sound worse. The 3:1 rule is a good place to start, but it is not always accurate. Again, this goes back to moving mics inch by inch.

3. Dynamics while tracking. The most common problemn I see with less experienced drummers is that they hit the shit out of the cymbals and not so much the drums. Reverse this thinking, and try and get a big sound out of your drums, while being a little lighter on the cymbals.

 

[TragikRemix]

You are recording way too hot if you needed a limiter to keep the signal from peaking. Turn it way down.

what exactly am i turning down? the gain on the mic inputs? i have them all in the middle. i just want to get a nice clean crisp sound.

im using a D112 on the kick, sm57 on the snare and akg c430's as OH's, all into a Digi 002r, i also have an ADA8000 that i use into the digi 002. im recording a 70's ludwig vistalite kit, which may be some of the problem, as i have heard. the acrylic shells are so freakin loud and there is a lot of ringing in the toms, which i barely hit. the snare is really sharp, crack. the kick is muffled nicely with a pillow, and a holz in the front. it has a nice "boom" to it, i wouldnt say it has a "tone".

as for tuning the drums, i have them tuned to what i think sounds good, which is loud and deep. i've heard of using one of those fancy tuners that measures "tympanic pressure not lug screw torque"?

 

[Farview]

what exactly am i turning down? the gain on the mic inputs? i have them all in the middle.

You are supposed to set the input gain on the mic preamps to set your levels. Where they are set depends entirly on how hot the singal coming into the preamp is. For drums, I doubt setting them in the middle is right. If you are coming anywhere near clipping, turn the inputs way down

as for tuning the drums, i have them tuned to what i think sounds good, which is loud and deep. i've heard of using one of those fancy tuners that measures "tympanic pressure not lug screw torque"?

Those fancy tuners only work once you have figured out what the tympanic pressure of each drum should be...Which means you have to tune it right first, then measure the heads, write down the measurments, and the next time you tune, etc....

If you have toms with no bottom heads, this could be an issue. Depending on the sound you are going for, that kit might not work. Most people muffled the heads on those drums.