Sample clearance

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I've tried asking this question many times but I haven't really got an answer yet.

What if you don't sample musical phrases, but short 2-5 second clips from movies and stuff? I can't find out where to go to even ask permission for this kind of thing, as many samples I use I have no idea where they came from. The kind of samples I use are like the ones White Zombie used to use. Just little clips of dialog and stuff. Where do you even begin to look to get permission for such use?
 
the truth is if you can manipulate a sound (not a clip of a song,riff, or any type of theme)but just a bare sound, like a note or drum, then chances are you don't have to pay cause its completely un-identifiable.

but don't be a thief. there's nothing i hate more than lack of creativity in this business. everyone wants to use the next, or last, persons talent to "make it big". fuck MTV.

now if you can take a piano or acoustic guitar or somethign similar and completely chop it up (i mean to like 1/16 of a note) and rearrange it to make it your own then do it, i takes artistry to flip one thing to something totally different and great. i've done it, but stick to making your own music, or at least sample royalty free stuff.

all great art has stolen from others art, but the trick is to do it with originality.

stealing is easy
originality is hard
 
Do yourself a very big favor. Get the March 2002 issue of Electronic Musician and read the article "Working Musician: In the Clear." It talks specifically about using copyrighted samples. To quote the article "There is no free zone when it comes to copying someone else's work. The rule of thumb is if you didn't write it, you need to clear it." Wouldn't it be a lot easier (and cheaper) to clear the sample now as a nobody (sorry about that) than when your song becomes the next #1 hit? Pay them a little now or a whole lot later if you get the hit. If you're going to be in this business you have to think like a businessman.

DD
 
The interesting thing to me- is that a kick drum is an instrument.
How in the hell can a person own the sound of a kick drum? Is this some fantastically unique sounding kick drum? How many of you (rather than recording a person playing a kick drum) actually layer sines and squares to generate your instruments? I have a friend that does- and I would suggest this as being truly original. Maybe the makers of your kick drum should charge royalties for recording the sound of their instrument so many times.
If a guy samples a guitar riff and throws it into his song- he's stealing- but if you samples 3 notes of the riff, add some over-drive, layer the samples with other sounds to give it flavor, lengthen and truncate notes, and sequence your own riff- you're not steeling for god sake. It's like picking up a guitar- twanging 3 notes into your sampler- and building a tune from it. If I have a snare sample that sounds like the one I need for my track (maybe with some improvement)- I'll use it man. You can't say you own a part of my song because I sampled the sound of you hitting a drum once. And I won't pay a penny to a person for smacking a drum once- as though they contributed to the sound of my track. I put the drum hits where they end up, I adjust the velocities of the rythm, I am the virtual drummer. I am the one who chooses how to set the velocity-crossfade to give it more crack when the velocity breaches 115. I'm the one to compress it how I like- reverse it if I like- or chop it to pure mush and reassemble it again. I'm not trying to be cocky, but geez louise the music is so much more expansive than trying to own the sound of a drum that has been played and recorded over and over again by millions of other folks. And if you make a sound that is entirely unrecognizable and fresh and new- then it is yours- no matter how you came to it. You could've used a mass compilation of snippets of sounds of which you distorted and layered and edited to your hearts content(and they may have all been copyrighted)- but when finished- if it sounds like an alien puking half-eaten opera-singing frogs, I think you are probably ok and could even feel proud of your originality. IMO
 
Bruce is right if you sample someone elses work you owe them roalties. What you can do is get a synth, drums and make your own recorded samples that sound like what you want to sample from the recordings and there wont be any trouble.

Example;David Bowie and Queen, vs Vanilla Ice. Vannila Actually didnt sample the recording but had a simmiler bass line played and didnt have to pay any royalties.

On the other hand ton loc sampled Jamies crying and slowed it down and did other stuff to it but still had to pay.
 
I see how you can be in trouble if you sample a musical part. In doin this- you are sampling the instrumentalist's skill, you are stealing the tune, you are using the feel that they created in your song.

I don't know enough about the rules to even ramble off the message I wrote earlier I guess- but I am confused as to why their would be so much particularity involved with using a one-shot sample that in many respects is a recorded hit generated from a drum that any one of us could have at home and record for use in a song.
If you go and snatch an entire drummers performance for your song- it makes sense that you should pay-up. But if you're using a single note- it is now separate from all other notes played- it lacks the continuity of its original context in the original material. It is a bare-bones sound. And then if you go further to modify this sound and articulate how it behaves in response to midi cc commands- is there an issue then?

So, I guess this would also apply to synth presets? or not?
 
When you are buying a synth, you are buying the rights to use the patches they provide....

There is a difference between a raw sound produced by anyone with access to that particular instrument, and the creativity involved in RECORDING even a single note of that instrument.

The minute it "goes to tape", it ceases to be a "raw note" and becomes a copyrightable creative expression.

Bruce
 
Recording movie dialogue is a different issue and is not recomended. UNLESS the movie is in the public domain and there are many that are. They are the types of movies that play late at night on cheezy local stations. You can do just about anything you want with them.

You can also record your own dialogue and rerecord it thru a boombox or EQ to make it sound like a TV sample.

If you want to sample any famous movie lines get ready for trouble if the song becomes popular.
 
There are people who are samplers, and there are people who are not. When I did my first homie CD, I bought a sample disk (1001 sample 8 bit type) and found them all to be crap. I got some freebees with Sound Forge XP, only a few were stereo 16 bit ones. The CD sucks where I used these samples and I wish I had never gone down that path.

I think, in my own lil world, that we are in an overused, rehashed oversampled world where the creativity is slowly being depleted.

If an artist needs to sample something to the extent where its recognizable as another artists work, you better license its usage or you will be sued. Its hard to prove copyright violations when the sample is so generic in nature that is could match 1000 different artists. Do homies ever think about making their own sample library? Grab your portable and head out on the streets to get those sounds. If youve stolen it...its wrong..Its should be that simple. If you have to ask the question...that should raise the red flag.


Peace,
Dennis
 
This is a very interesting subject. Myself, and likely many other people- probably don't even realize how much goes into recording a sound properly and capturing its true character. I have a sincere intention of learning more about this side of things- because I do want to eventually create everything from nothing. So, if we consider the vastness of electronic dance music for example- would you suggest that all these producers/writers actually record their own acoustic sounds. Or is it more so- that the majority of dance music today doesn't even use real acoustic sounds- being more on the synthetic side like using an 808 kick or something. But if your synthetic kick has been processed and possibly rendered unique and copyrighted in your song- would it be ethical to sample that same kick. Or would it be violating the realm of creative property to sample the synthetic kick that was specially processed and compressed, etc. by an engineer who developed the sound from possibly a standard drum sound that came with his drumbox?

I was wondering about this because it seems that many folks on this forum may have more traditional applications in mind than from the stand-point that I'm coming from in this example where it seems that many sounds are shared without regard in the dance-music realm. Any thoughts?
 
I have no problem paying someone for the rights to use a movie sample. The main challenge I have is finding the person that is supposed to get the royalties. For a while now we've been concidering recording the samples ourselves and changing them a bit by using different words and stuff. Would this work? My girlfriend can make her voice sound like alot of movie characters.

I still dont see a problem with sampling specific drum hits and stuff. As a recording engineer id be flattered if someone used a kick sound that I captured. Besides, try taking a copyright infringement case to court over a single kick drum and you'll get laughed at. Period.

As song writers and engineers of course we work hard at what we do. But other songwriters have other methods of creating songs. If they want to take a kick drum off my record and make a beat with it, go for it. Chances are I wont even recognize it when its done anyway. People seem to treat music more like a competition than an art form. At the same time taking a melody line and calling it your own wether sampled or reproduced (puff daddy, vannilla ice) is not creativity and will never recieve any respect from me.
 
I'm quoting this from an article in March's EM called 'In the Clear - Learn How to Use Samples Legally' by Michael Aczon. (There. Nobody can sue me now, right? :D) At the end of the article he does a Q/A thing:

"NO FREEBIES. 'I sampled only six bars. I thought as many as eight is free.' That is simply a record industry urban legend. There is no 'free zone' when it comes to copying someone else's work. Keep in mind that a great hook in a song could be as short as one measure or even a couple of seconds. If it's identifiable, clear it.

"SAFETY CLEARANCE. 'I processed the sample so it no longer sounds like the original, so I don't have to clear it.' A good rule of thumb is this: if you didn't write it, you need to clear it."

Now, I don't know about you, but assuming he knows what he's talking about, there seem to be two things going on here. First, since there's no such thing as a 'free zone', you're liable to get nailed for using anything and not clearing it. Second, he says 'if it's identifiable'. Which suggests to me that if no-one can identify it, then you can get away with it.

Now, what you feel about 'getting away with it' is another matter for heated debate, but we've done that already in this thread, right? :D
 
>Just little clips of dialog and stuff.

If you're using them for their "recognizability" vis-a-vis some other production, news-wise or music-wise, then you need to address the copyright concerns.

But just the random dialog that I've heard on The Beatles, "#9"
and a lot of Zappa stuff- naaaaah. I don't think so.

"El Dorado"
"The Watusi"
"The Twist"

On their own, no problem. Put them together, in order and you DO!

see what I mean?
 
Yeah, but what if you don't get an answer when asking for permission?

Now don't laugh, but for the heck of it, I wrote to 20th century fox for the use of their fanfare at the beginning of their movies.
Here are the facts:

- I am recording a rap group in Niger. Their probable duplication output: 1.000 cassettes and 500 CDs. All for the nigerien market.
- Their earnings out of sales? About 1.000$ net.
- Their earnings out of royalties, publishing rights, etc? Zip, nada... (ALL the video "stores" in this country run only pirated films - you get the idea about the respect for copyrighted material)
- Niger is according to UN statisticts the second poorest country in the world for the fifth time in a row. Only Sierra Leone is behind Niger, and they have a civil war going on. Not even Afghanistan is close. So imagine a local musician struggling...
- I record at night just for the heck/passion of it (I work full-time at daylight). I have all my software licensed, with exception of Winzip which I have never used again. I have never used copyrighted material.

20th C. Fox's site offers the email-adress for contact regarding licencing, permission, etc. of their copyrighted material.

Just for the fun of it, I asked how much it would cost to use that sound-sample at the beginning of the CD.

Wonder when (if) they'll answer.

Now a hypothetical question, if after many tries, I never get an answer - would you have remorse of using the sample?

I can't beg them to answer. I wouldn't mind a standard-reply, either.


Hans
 
It seems that many people are saying that sampling is uncreative and I feel that is quite untrue. I've seen some of the boringest sampled sounds be cranked, twisted, distorted, backmasked, and mangled, etc. into pure works of art. Some of these people I feel are sonic geniuses. I see more creativitiy in their works than some of the best known musicians. Sampling is an artform in itself, one that many people don't understand.


People are also talking about musical plagiarism and I find this funny. Nowadays, almost every pop song sounds the same. Carbon-copy bands. I hear lines and lines of lyrics being ripped off from each other. Guitar solo after guitar solo of duplicate phrasings. Should these people be charged of copywrite violation? Then the poor schmuck with his home studio who samples a kick drum from his Britney Speares CD and then runs it through every effect imaginable. Should this person be charged? Every person gets their sounds and musical ideas from elsewhere. We've all had our influences. Many people talk much about originality. Well what is it? Does anybody have a truly original idea in their head? One of my favorite quotes is "Originality is just hiding your sources." I don't remember who said this but I believe it's true. Should I be charged for copywrite infringement for printing this?

-Sal
 
Then the poor schmuck with his home studio who samples a kick drum from his Britney Speares CD and then runs it through every effect imaginable. Should this person be charged?
Click to expand...
Damn right he should be charged. If I worked for two days setting up mics, changing drum heads, tweaking endlessly to get the drums to sound right and some else later mearly sampled my hard work no matter what they did with the subsequent sample, I'd be pissed.
 
TrackRat you just sampled my words in your post without my permission. Should *you* be charged? Those words are my intellectual property you know.

My point isn't to belittle you or act babyish but to demonstrate, "where do you draw the line?" Sure if for some reason I took you to court for this I would just be laughed at by the judges, but technically it's about the same thing. I'd like to hear challenges on the differences, because the more we talk about this the fuzzier the lines get.
 
Blue Bear said... "When you are buying a synth, you are buying the rights to use the patches they provide....

There is a difference between a raw sound produced by anyone with access to that particular instrument, and the creativity involved in RECORDING even a single note of that instrument.

The minute it "goes to tape", it ceases to be a "raw note" and becomes a copyrightable creative expression. "


First off that last part isn't completely right. What you call "Raw Notes" *are* technically copyrightable. Otherwise someone could create a song and play it live (before it is recorded) and someone could snatch it with a tape recorder and it would be their song and not the performer's. A song is technically copyrighted as soon as it is created not when it "goes to tape".

Also, what you said about the synth thing seems a little sketchy to me. Funny I don't remember when my friends bought any of their keyboards any kind of legal agreement that gives them the rights for anything. What if you bought it used? Yes, it's an unwritten rule that if you buy an instrument you can't get in trouble for using or recording it, but in a very technical legal sense, you and the company never entered into a binding agreement whatsoever, verbally or written.

Technically by what you are saying, it is illegal for me to use and record my friend's Yamaha keyboard patches because I didn't buy it and haven't entered into an agreement with Yamaha.

-Sal
 
No Matter how you argue or twist this subject arround, Sample without clearence and you are in for trouble, Period. No use beating a dead horse because you may get one of us to say its ok. Save you energy for that judge thats going to bite you on the ass, good luck argueing your way out of it.

As for pileing on effects and slowing it down, doesnt make it right, I just makes it harder to spot.
 
-darrin_h2000

I've never condoned or not condoned sampling other people's works in my posts. It may seem that way because I tend to play devil's advocate. My point is: where is the line between legal and illegal? From reading all of the posts on this thread, nobody seems to have a clear definition (because there isn't one). People seem to get all "hot" when the subject is brought up. This immediately makes me think "closed mindedness".

Some of our thoughts as a society on musical property rights seem contradictory. It seems that being a cover band and getting paid for it is alright, but that kid who stole that Britney beat and makes a song with it, and only distributes it to his friends (for free) is wrong and should be thrown up against that judge who's "going to bite you on the ass". I'm betting that many people who take these standpoints have no problems downloading songs off of Napster or Gnutella either.

I personally don't sample, or at least yet. If I were to find myself sampling, I would be creative about it, go out and find my own sounds. So please don't attack me, attack the issue.
Sorry, the last thing I care to do is sample off of commercial releases. Probably the only way I'd do that is to make a mockery of what I was sampling (Guess what, parodies are legal, another blurring of the line).

-Sal
 
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