S.U.B. or Real McCoy?

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ahuimanu

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I've noticed that as one ages the tolerance for middle-of-the-road instruments and compromises seems to decrease. I still buy "bargain" instruments from time to time, but my band days seem so far behind me now that I sometimes find it hard to justify obtaining "quality" instruments when my playing is usually limited to farting around on the DAW and playing through head phones.

With that preamble out of the way, here is the fence I sit on today...

I own a "frankenstein" Fender Bass with some vintage-level parts on it (70s Jazz Body and 70s Precision Neck). I also have a "Geddy Lee" Limited Edition Jazz that I like. This brings me to the point of my thread: the StingRay.

I've coveted the StingRay for a large portion of my life and really really want one lately. Brand new, at $1,300.00, this Bass isn't as pricey as some Gibson instruments and even more exotic "boutique" Basses, but over $1,000.00 still means something to me.

Now, time and time again (I need to be committed, seriously) I've falled victim to "buy cheap, buy twice." Last year I got one of those OLP "faux StringRays" and, honestly, it does feel pretty good. However, it just doesn't sound right and I notice myself going into the sickness of "well, I can just slap better x and y into it and it'll be AS GOOD AS THE REAL THING!" Sound familiar?

Call it early mid-life crisis if you will (mid 30s here), but I am so tired of playing that game with myself. However, it seems that the manufacturers have a whole new level of madness for us to indulge in: the "cheap domestic" line like the Highway Ones from Fender or the S.U.B. from Ernie Ball/MusicMan.

So, here I am, another year and another bout of gearitis where I am seriously examining assuaging my StingRay jones. So, last year I learned that OLP "knock-off" != MusicMan StringRay - no matter how many ways I try to see it in a more favorable light. Is the S.U.B. series just another mistake waiting to be made? I can just do the consumer-debt thing and ring the MusicMan up on the credit card and bite the bullet, but the miser in me says "aww man, the S.U.B. is the SAME THING DUDE.

Am I delusional? I want a MusicMan StingRay, is the S.U.B even in the same league?

In case you need a refresher or don't know:

The S.U.B.:
http://www.ernieball.com/mmonline/specs/instruments_sub.html
about $600 to $700

The "real deal": http://www.ernieball.com/mmonline/specs/instruments_stingray.html
about $1,100 to $1,300

Does anyone have an informed opinion or wisdom in this matter?

Thanks,

J
 
Buy the real one. Please. You know you want it. You will always want it, and if you buy the SUB(stitute), you will always think of the real one when you play it. Wait and save some cash if you need to. Unless it's a choice between that and feeding your kids, or something important like that.
 
The way I look at is this- I've been playing music for 20 something years. I play and record my own stuff now because I've had enough of the band thing and all of the crap that goes along with it. I'm playing because I love it and
I'm not ever going to stop. I can appreciate a bargain as well as the next guy, but if you're going to play music, band or not, get the goods, it will make you happier in the end! But ultimately, what's the wife got to say about it? If you're not married, I don't see the dillema. Just my .02 cents.
 
boingoman said:
Buy the real one. Please. You know you want it. You will always want it, and if you buy the SUB(stitute), you will always think of the real one when you play it. Wait and save some cash if you need to. Unless it's a choice between that and feeding your kids, or something important like that.
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I agree. Get it and don't look back. The SUBs are pretty good and they'd make great and sturdy basses for heavy road work but ten years from now when you still enjoy the real deal you'll thank yourself.

(A Sterling owner)
 
You cannot deny your GAS

Gear Acquisition Syndrome, my friend. We all suffer from it.

If it's not going to put you into a fiscal crises, get the real thing.

You said yourself that you've yearned for that bass for a long time.

I did the same thing with my guitar amp a couple years ago. I jacked around with mid-level amps for years... changing tubes, speaker cabinets, etc. trying to be happy with the sound. I finally bit the bullet and bought a high-end amp I've been wanting and I have not regretted it for one second. I play more because I love the sound and feel of my amp. It was one of the best music gear purchases I've ever made.
 
I'll give a vote for the SUB. Other than the finish, it's the same bass. Same pickups, same electronics. If it's performance you want, get the SUB. If you want the extra finishing touches, get the Sting Ray.
 
freshmattyp said:
I'll give a vote for the SUB. Other than the finish, it's the same bass. Same pickups, same electronics. If it's performance you want, get the SUB. If you want the extra finishing touches, get the Sting Ray.
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No it's not.
Painted neck/headstock-useful for covering up ugly/flawed less expensive wood. Not worse wood, just not pretty
Passive EQ- Active is standard on the Stingray, option on the sub
Limited colors vs. the Stingray
Poplar body- worst tone ever, in my book. Slightly better than balsa.
Stingray has some shielding, Sub doesn't.
 
Hey all,

I appreciate your feedback. I obviously lean towards the majority of assessments here. It is funny how marketing and impatience has created and perpetuates an entire market segment. Honestly, open up a music-store flyer the next time it is sent to your home (if you order gear online, you get these); it is obvious that the "sweet spot" in the market is the $100.00 to $300.00 instruments (drums included - *shudder*).

Since I essentially agree, I suppose I am looking for encouragement for purchasing an instrument (a single instrument - with only 4 strings mind you) that is almost as expensive as the Roland V-Drums I got about 4 years ago. I justified that purchase on almost the same grounds as this StringRay. I've been primarily a drummer all my life and V-drums are the most effective way to still be able to play and have a family and all that. Since this whole DAW revolution has taken off, I've justified "cheap" gear for variety's sake and now I am really leaning towards wanting one or two "classic" specimens in each category (guit, bass, drums).

I suppose if I unload all the other basses it is easier to explain to the wife why this particular GAS expedition has some finality to it (delusional! ;-) )

I appreciate the input.

J
 
Well,

Here it is, 6 months later and I've bitten the bullet.

One 2005 Honeyburst/Rosewood StingRay on the way!
 
Bass is my third (or fourth) instrument, so I own the SUB and love it. If I were primarily a bass player I would own an outrageously hot finished Stingray5, no question.

All depends on your needs.

H2H
 
ahuimanu said:
I've noticed that as one ages the tolerance for middle-of-the-road instruments and compromises seems to decrease. I still buy "bargain" instruments from time to time, but my band days seem so far behind me now that I sometimes find it hard to justify obtaining "quality" instruments when my playing is usually limited to farting around on the DAW and playing through head phones.
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You're only in your 30's and your band days are behind you? Unless that's a conscious, intentional choice, then you oughta be ashamed of yourself! I'm *considerably* older than you, and I am in two original bands that play regularly, one cover band that gigs occasionally, a "jamming society" that gets together most every weekend, and two other "just for fun" bands that play a couple of times a year. All that and a wife, a house, a kid, and a day job.

If what you really want is to sit home alone twiddling your DAW (I've got one of those, too), then have at it, but if what you really want to do is work with other players, then get off your duff and do it.
 
My passion is guitar and Telecasters and I have been playing for 20 years! My dream guitar was/is the 52RI in Butterscotch. In 20 years I have spent over $3000 dollars in low to mid level guitars.. I could have had the '52 with all the junk I have bought. Here is it is 20 years later and I play a Mexican tele and a Mexican Strat.. Same goes with amps and I still have a crappy amp.

I could have had top of the line both if I would have just bit the bullet in the beginning.

Now when it comes to my second, third and fourth instruments I don't mind the $100 to $300 range.. Because I don't know the difference.. LOL
 
boingoman said:
No it's not.
Painted neck/headstock-useful for covering up ugly/flawed less expensive wood. Not worse wood, just not pretty
Passive EQ- Active is standard on the Stingray, option on the sub
Limited colors vs. the Stingray
Poplar body- worst tone ever, in my book. Slightly better than balsa.
Stingray has some shielding, Sub doesn't.
Click to expand...
There are some significant objections to the S.U.B., but I don't count these among them.

According to my information from MM, the necks are identical to the Stingray's, just painted. The money saved in not in the wood, but in the hand-labor to finish them out to MM's usual high visual standards (the plating and metal finish is still superb on the S.U.B.).

That's what the S.U.B. concept is about: Cheap industrial paint, no expensive buff-out. My sources at MM say that the build is in no way compromised where it matters, and that seems to fit what I've seen on S.U.B.s I've encountered -- excellent build and excellent fingerboard detailing, at least compared to Fender.

If you want the active (I don't), you can have it and it's the same as the Stingray's.

Poplar's not significantly different from alder (though it usually is from ash), and if poplar bothers you, MMs use of basswood in its high-priced basses must be quite disturbing. The tonal difference between one blank to the other - which is often extreme - is more significant than the species of wood in any case, and there's a very big difference in the quality of poplar. MM uses a lot of "bargain" wood species rarely encountered on expensive instruments, but they aren't cheap stock.

Shielding is trivial. If you think it's a big deal, just do it. Feh.

So... What shortcomings matter about the S.U.B.?

First on the list is its sheer, breathtaking ugliness. Unless you can luck out and get a black one, any of the other colors, which look like they're applied with a hose, may frighten your band members and audience half to death, even if you eventually get used to it yourself. It's an axiom of marketing that you make your cheaper lines in less desirable colors, but the S.U.B. takes this to new extremes. The purple, the teal... Sensitive people will run screaming and need trauma counseling.

And then...top it off with that flimsy Formica pickguard in miniature faux diamond-plate.

Secondly, the back-breaking weight, though this may vary a lot from one example to the next. The slab body is a lot of wood, and if it's a really dense blank you're in for some pain. The massiveness of the bass is impressive.

Thirdly, no case. That's OK for folks like me who have a closet full of cases and don't want or need any more. The S.U.B., though about 1/2" wider than the Precision, fits the classic Precision case better than the Precision does. I'm not sure it's even possible to damage a S.U.B. anyway.

Lastly, the machine heads are a slightly cheaper version, but they are very well-made and perfectly functional.

But --- what makes the S.U.B. great? Yes, it is indeed a great bass.

It is incredibly rugged. MMs in general are sturdy axes, but to top that off, the S.U.B.'s ghastly finish is the most indestructable substance I've ever seen on an instrument. It's really amazing.

It is indeed a Stingray. A weaponized Stingray, yes, but a Stingray. It is "the real McCoy." Unlike virtually all other "dumbed-down" versions of popular instruments, the important stuff is identical, not cheaped-out look-alike. It's made in the same factory to the same standards by the same people, except in that it forgoes the usually gorgeous MM exotic finishes. It's not a look-alike farmed out to some Mexican maquiladora or Indonesian sweatshop. It's a largely superficially "look-different" made in the same house. It's a pro-grade bass, period.

Above and beyond all else, largely for the good & bad reasons above, the S.U.B. is absolutely the punkest bass in the universe. Nothing comes within miles of it. I wouldn't be caught dead with one on stage at this stage of my life, but if I were nineteen years old in a sneering, screaming, bad-attitude band whose shows typically ended in wild brawls, there simply would be no other bass in the world. My only hard decision would be picking the most obnoxiously hideous color of the obnoxiously hideous ones available.
 
ahuimanu said:
I am so tired of playing that game with myself. However, it seems that the manufacturers have a whole new level of madness for us to indulge in: the "cheap domestic" line like the Highway Ones from Fender or the S.U.B. from Ernie Ball/MusicMan.
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It is a great injustice to compare the H1 to the S.U.B., and it's a mistake to fall for the MIA-ness of the H1. The S.U.B. is an American-made bass in the same sense that the Stingray is. The H1 is only so on paper, as a complex and technically creative legal fiction based on calculations of the comparative dollar value of the amounts of labor done in the two Fender plants. The H1 is a very slightly improved MIM Standard "Upgrade" closer to a MIM "Classic" and not an "American" series by any stretch of the imagination.

That out of the way, I think you should get a snazzy Stingray and not the S.U.B.

Why? Because you're a mature player who can genuinely appreciate the true delicate gorgeousness of MM's top-line gear and will probably take care of it. I baby my gear, and most of my stuff is pristine and unblemished, and I appreciate finely finished instruments -- though I never take them out of the studio! :rolleyes:

I think the S.U.B. is a fantastic bass for a gigging thrasher kid who's rough on equipment. It's not a thing of rare beauty.
 
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Come on, the SUB isnt THAT ugly. :) I like the metalflake red, it looks nice under stage lighting. I prefer its looks to my black Precision bass or my midnight wine Jazz bass. Its just not the superb hand rubbed finish of a Stingray. I still think its better than solid color Fender finishes.

H2H
 

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Ok, I feel better now :D

H2H
 

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Hard2Hear said:
Come on, the SUB isnt THAT ugly. :) I like the metalflake red...
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"HEY! No fair! You changed the pickguard!" :)

I'm unclear on that red. It's one of the two bearable colors that the S.U.B.s come in (the other being black, which looks disturbingly like the deck surfacing on American aircraft carriers). "Red" on S.U.B.s can be that horrendous dingy purple that looks like wine vomit down the sparkley front of a beige Lurex pimp tuxedo.

I was told that the purple/red was discontinued now, but I keep seeing new S.U.B. basses and guitars showing up with it. I don't know if the red/red came before or after or what.

The purple was so ghastly that my GC couldn't move it, so they sold it to me for $319.99, a "what the heck, why not get it?" price for me. Believe it or not, some of the uglier Bongo colors got dumped for $499.99 at some GCs last Memorial Day (think of it, $500 for a Bongo!). Not at mine, unfortunately, though they were $799.99.
 
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Ive never played ona Bongo, but they look very interesting...and those closeout prices are unbelieveable. I would have had to grab one for $500...I paid $450 for my SUB, but feel I got a very good value for that.

I'd like to see your purple, I dont think Ive seen one like that. I hate the blue color, though. Just pukey. BTW- Stingray guards fit perfectly on SUBs. All the holes line up perfectly, cause theyre made from the same templates and share the exact same pickup. It DOES do alot for the looks.

H2H
 
ggunn said:
You're only in your 30's and your band days are behind you? Unless that's a conscious, intentional choice, then you oughta be ashamed of yourself! I'm *considerably* older than you, and I am in two original bands that play regularly, one cover band that gigs occasionally, a "jamming society" that gets together most every weekend, and two other "just for fun" bands that play a couple of times a year. All that and a wife, a house, a kid, and a day job.

If what you really want is to sit home alone twiddling your DAW (I've got one of those, too), then have at it, but if what you really want to do is work with other players, then get off your duff and do it.
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Dude, I hear you. I suppose I should have mentioned that I work full time teaching at a college as well as working towards my PhD.

However, your point is well taken; Lately, I've had a little voice in my head that's being saying exactly what you are.
 
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