Rythm Guitar Chronicles...

[Lee123]

Hi all
This forum has been a life saver many a time for me in the past, excellent resource for sure.
I return with a wee question....

When recording heavily distorted rythm guitar, I always look for the biggest sound I can get, especially as I am a guitarist...
This is my somewhat typical setup for doing this...
Valve head, 4x12 cab...I mic two speakers using a Sure 57on one and a Senheiser 609 on the other. I might then have two condenser set back slightly doing the x,y thing.
I then track these, blend them, duplicate the tracks...have the orignal tracks panned left (to varying degrees) and the dup tracks panned right with around a 10 millisecond delay. Innitially this sounded big and full. Now I am learning a little more about eq and the frequency instruments use, I notice that on the analyzer (in my waves bundle) on these guitar tracks I have an antiphase issue showing up on both extreme left and right.
I am know thinking that I need to relook at my recording technique. I would like to ask how you guys go about recording the perfect big guitar sound. Also is the antiphase thing the analzer is showing me really an issue. My ears are also telling me that I can hear this antiphase issue but I am not experienced enough to say this for sure.....if that makes sense?
Again, thanks in advance for all your help.

Lee123

Setup:
Cubase SX, Echo Layla, Mackie 1604, BlueTube Pre, M-Audio Pre, DBX-Comp/Gate, KSM32, etc...

 

[Ronan]

Use your ears instead of the phase meter. Beyond that, you will know what is right for your guitar sound, but I would suggest a couple things:

1)There is no need to delay the overdub track. You being a human being is enough variation.

2) You have a lot of mics going for a guitar cab, and your spaced stereo pair seems like overkill. Try taking a more simple approach to the guitar sound. Record mono and pan them hard left and right. This might sound a little extreme at first, but listen close to the records you love and you may find this is exactly how they do it.

3) Be a little careful about making the guitar sound too big if it is part of a band mix. A really big guitar sound can make the whole tracks sound smaller. Most records that have the appearance of big guitar sounds actually have kind of small, thin guitar sounds that fit into a mix with drums and bass that all have their own space in the mix.

 

[Lee123]

Thanks Ronan
As a still learning engineer (under two years) I can get carried away with a certain technique or project and before you know it, I have reached the wonderful point of Overkill.
So my plan is, to use one mic on the cab ( I may use a condenser further back if it sounds ok) and overdub the track as you said, then work from there.
Sometimes it's hard to say when to stop, Ronan is right, going back to basics is always the best starting point and sometimes the best ending point.
I would like to hear what techniques other people use though......very interesting stuff...

 

[Farview]

Yea, what Ronan said. If you want to know if the phase is a problem, listen in mono and see if the guitars get alot quieter. If they do, you might want to do something about it.

 

[Lee123]

Thanks FairView.....will check my mix in mono.

Do most of you guys out there a prefer the mono approach to recording overdriven guitars?
I guess I got all this in my head after a friend of mine got a record deal, recorded at a top studio. His guitarist said they used eight mics on the cab they supplied for him. I know I only have a home studio but hey....

It's just interesting knowing what techniques people use, even if some of them are far from feasible......
Lee123

 

[Cloneboy Studio]

Some AE's want certain mics out of phase when recording guitar... or so they've said. I've never used it myself. Ultimately if it sounds good go for it.

However, to answer your question I'll kind of critique your setup:

In my opinion too many mics. While using different mics in different positions can help capture sound can be great if you have a decent room. However, there is always the possibility of ending up with guitars that are TOO big and become difficult to mix.

I try to limit myself to 2 types of microphone, and no more than 3 mics per cabinet/amplifier. 95% of the time I'll use only 2 mics. I *never* use one mic, however. It just doesn't sound right to me. Also, I tend to use a dynamic and a condensor on electric guitar, and don't automatically reach for the SM57.

In fact, the last few months I've *avoided* SM57 and have been very happy with these new sounds I'm achieving. I find that a RE20, MD421 or a SM7 work really good for a dynamic. Last time I used a NT1 as a condensor with an RE20 near the grill on-axis and the guitar sound really came out well; different but good.

For the clean electric guitars we rolled in an Orange Crush 10 amp (cheap but believe it or not they record very nicely) and a Lab L5 (amazing sounding and cheap amps) and stacked them atop each other. I put up the NT1 as a closer mic (about 2') and a CAD condensor about 4' away from it. The sound was warm, yet jangly and bright.

The acoustic guitar we did I used an over the shoulder (NT1 again--lately I've been on an NT1 kick) and a C1000 pointed at the 12th fret. Only issue with this was the picking was a little bit too loud but we haven't compressed the tracks yet.

I'd post clips but we are still tracking vocals and everything is at the studio right now.

 

[Aaron Cheney]

I'll agree with what everyone has said about not letting your guitar sound get "too big". When guys are jamming in their bedroom they too often get to thinking that a "good guitar tone" is the bass-heavy chunking thing, and while that may sound great all by itself, it will walk all over the bass and kick in a mix.
I would go on to say that if you are finding your "heavily distorted" guitar tracks just sound too small, try less distortion. More distortion does not equal "bigger"... in fact in my experience it usually equals smaller.

A

 

[manning1]

lee try experimenting with less delay on the duped track.
an old trick is to cut the bass eq on the original track, and cut the highs on the duped track a bit. this creates an ILLUSION to the listener.
maybe also try tiny compression on the duped track.
ive found there is no right way micing guitar cabs / amps etc. some engrs i respect told me years ago use 1 mic others two mics. yet others said
use a guitar processor for the second duped track for flavour.
yet others told me when doing bed tracks for a rock band and this has worked well for me in the past use the mics on the guitar amps of the rhythm and lead player to pick up the drums set back from the guitars for some room leakage. and run the bass direct.
just some ideas.

 

[Cloneboy Studio]

Myself I'll just have them cut 4-6 tracks and forget about the false double thing, which sounds wrong to me anyways. The only time I'll use a false double on guitar is if for some reason there's only one track of guitar recorded... such as from a live show with only one guitarist.

Otherwise, the guitarist had better have his chops up for lots of overdubs.

 

[Lee123]

Wow...thanks guys for your input. The reason I asked is because I have recorded a few bands and off course just myself and have never really been amazingly happy with the overdriven guitar sound (but I am a guitarist...lol).
My band is know recording and I wanted to get the best sound for us.

We started laying tracks yestaday. Started by laying acoustic guitar.
I had my rythm player sit in upstairs where there is a wooden floor and a reasonable sound. I used three condensers. Sure Ksm32 pointing somewhere near the 12 fret, an Octavia 319 at the bridge and then a Studio projects C-1 about 5 feet away pointing straight at the guitar. Excellent results...

Then came the distorted guitar. I took all of your advice (sorta). I started by turning down the distortion and making sure the sound wasn't too bassy/boomy (I'm using a Marshall Jcm2000 Dsl with a 1960 classic 4 x 12 cab and a Schecter C1). I initially decided to use all the mics on the cab and then remove the ones I didn't like.
I put an sm57 and a senhieser 609 about 2" from the grill on different speakers, the 57 was slightly off axis and the 609 ended up striaght on. I then put a Ksm32 about 4-5 feet away pointing straight at a speaker. I then put another condenser inverted ontop of the Ksm pointing at the side walls.
Now remember, I was not planning on using all these mics, just to hear them and remove the ones I didn't need or like.
We recorded using them all and the sound was amazing. I still plan on removing a few as the sound is pretty big. This setup might work better for lead.....maybe...
I attached a picture of the cab we miked up for your viewing plessure.....lol...
I have yet to mix the guitar but I am sure I will end up the two or maybe three mics in the end.
but I totally agree with Cloneboy in that one mic on it's own just doesn't work....or atleast not for me.
I'll let you know how my mix comes out.
Thanks guys.
Lee123

 

[Chill]

Aaron's right, turn down the gain a bit because how it sounds in the room and how it sounds at the cone are usually different.

I like to have two guitar tracks panned about 3/4 to either side, with something different about the two tracks: different guitar, amp, settings, cab, mic, and/or placement.