RWRP middle pickup question

[famous beagle]

Hey y'all,

I have a Strat and just replaced the stock pickups with the following pickups:

Bridge: Seymour Duncan Little 59 (single coil-sized humbucker)
Middle: Seymour Duncan RWRP Vintage pickup
Neck: Seymour Duncan

All positions sound great except for the neck/middle position, which sounds super thin and out of phase. This is my first (knowing) experience with a RWRP middle pickup. It occurred to me that maybe I need to reverse the wires for the middle pickup. In other words, I wired it up just like the neck pickup, with white as hot and black as ground. Do I need to switch those wires?

Thanks

 

[RFR]

Yes. Reverse wind is to create the noise cancellation when in the number two position. Reverse polarity creates the out of phase which is giving you your thin sound.
It’s not so obvious when paired up with a humbucker, but sounds horrible with single coils (my opinion. Some may like that sound)

 

[famous beagle]

Yes. Reverse wind is to create the noise cancellation when in the number two position. Reverse polarity creates the out of phase which is giving you your thin sound.
It’s not so obvious when paired up with a humbucker, but sounds horrible with single coils (my opinion. Some may like that sound)

Yes, I agree it sounds bad. I have an SG with the Peter Green wiring, so it's out of phase in the middle position, but only if the bridge and neck volume are set the same. If I change one of the volumes a little bit, the middle position sounds full and in-phase again. So it's a very nice setup, and the out of phase position is useful, as you said.

But on a Strat? I agree, it sounds terrible. Thanks!

 

[ashcat_lt]

Does it actually cancel hum in that position. If so, then inverting the wiring might fix the string signal, but might make the unwanted noise worse.

If that is true (better string sound but worse noise), then it is in fact not RWRP with respect to the neck pickup. OTOH, if you flip phase and both the noise and the sound of the strings is better, then yeah it was just installed incorrectly. If both get worse, you’ve got some other problem.

I bet SD has wiring diagrams on their website, and probably provided some documentation with the pickups themselves.

 

[RFR]

Does it actually cancel hum in that position. If so, then inverting the wiring might fix the string signal, but might make the unwanted noise worse.

Then it would be just like a normal vintage strat with no hum canceling in positions 2 and 4.

 

[TalismanRich]

Before you rewire things, maybe try changing the height of the either the neck or middle pickup to adjust the relative volume. That might mitigate a bit of the cancellation you get from the reversed wiring, as you do with your SG by changing the volumes. I have a Guild S100 with a reverse phase switch, which does what your SG with the Greenie setup has. In those guitars, the thin, out of phase sound is kind of what you are a trying to get. But taken to extreme, it can be too much cancellation.

If the bridge/middle sounds ok, then adjust the neck pickup. If both positions 2 and sound weak, then adjust the middle pickup.

 

[Old Music Guy]

I have a Strat and just replaced the stock pickups with the following pickups:

Bridge: Seymour Duncan Little 59 (single coil-sized humbucker)
Middle: Seymour Duncan RWRP Vintage pickup
Neck: Seymour Duncan

ALL my Strat builds have a RWRP middle pickup. Go to the Seymour Duncan and look at the wiring diagrams. The RWRP has NOTHING to do with phase if it's wired properly.
You should wire it the same way all the other pups are wired. IF you think it's out of phase, make sure the bridge and neck pups are wired correctly.
Also. if you have a stacked humbucker in the neck, it's gonna matter if it's 2 wire or 4 wire. Wire that wrong, the Earth will shift it's magnetic poles, and we'll all be screwed

 

[Old Music Guy]

Before you rewire things, maybe try changing the height of the either the neck or middle pickup to adjust the relative volume.

That's a fix, not a repair. The problem, is in the wiring.

 

[famous beagle]

@ashcat_lt
@TalismanRich
@Old Music Guy

Thanks for the comments, y'all. I checked SD's site for wiring diagrams, and the closest one I could find is the standard 3 single coil, 5-way switch wiring. I couldn't find any wiring diagrams that mentioned anything about RWRP pickups.

I'm 100% sure I wired it correctly using the standard Strat wiring, with the black wires going to ground and the white wires hot. (I'm referring to the middle and neck pickups. Obviously, the Little 59 is a humbucker, so it had four wires. SD had a wiring diagram for that, which I used, and the Little 59 is working great.)

I'll try messing with the pickup heights a bit and see if that makes a change. If not, I can try reversing the wires for the middle pickup and see what happens.

If it's still messed up after that, I don't know what the issue could be. It's a brand new wiring with brand new pots and a new switch. It is shielded, but I've used electrical tape at any possible vulnerable spot to make sure nothing it making contact with the shielding.

Also, I've wired up lots of Strats in the past and never had this issue. But, like I said, this is my first experience wiring up a RWRP pickup (unless I had another one and didn't know it.)

I bought both of these SD single coils used, but the RWRP pickup has a sticker on the bottom that says "RWRP," and the neck one has a sticker that says "Neck." I suppose the seller could've just put the RWRP sticker on there, but that seems unlikely.

Also, I know that the middle pickup is different than the neck, because the wire end terminals on the bottom of the pickups were opposite. On the neck pickup, the white wire was connected to one terminal, but on the RWRP pickup, the white wire was connected to the other terminal.

This is what made me wonder if need to reverse those wires.

 

[Papanate]

@ashcat_lt
@TalismanRich
@Old Music Guy

Thanks for the comments, y'all. I checked SD's site for wiring diagrams, and the closest one I could find is the standard 3 single coil, 5-way switch wiring. I couldn't find any wiring diagrams that mentioned anything about RWRP pickups.

I'm 100% sure I wired it correctly using the standard Strat wiring, with the black wires going to ground and the white wires hot. (I'm referring to the middle and neck pickups. Obviously, the Little 59 is a humbucker, so it had four wires. SD had a wiring diagram for that, which I used, and the Little 59 is working great.)

I'll try messing with the pickup heights a bit and see if that makes a change. If not, I can try reversing the wires for the middle pickup and see what happens.

If it's still messed up after that, I don't know what the issue could be. It's a brand new wiring with brand new pots and a new switch. It is shielded, but I've used electrical tape at any possible vulnerable spot to make sure nothing it making contact with the shielding.

Also, I've wired up lots of Strats in the past and never had this issue. But, like I said, this is my first experience wiring up a RWRP pickup (unless I had another one and didn't know it.)

I bought both of these SD single coils used, but the RWRP pickup has a sticker on the bottom that says "RWRP," and the neck one has a sticker that says "Neck." I suppose the seller could've just put the RWRP sticker on there, but that seems unlikely.

Also, I know that the middle pickup is different than the neck, because the wire end terminals on the bottom of the pickups were opposite. On the neck pickup, the white wire was connected to one terminal, but on the RWRP pickup, the white wire was connected to the other terminal.

This is what made me wonder if need to reverse those wires.

You should be wired like the Schematic shows from Seymour Duncan - I don’t know how the humbucker pickup would work with a RWRP pickup because it uses the RW to create a humbucker with a single coil - when combined with a Humbucker I’m not sure what it will do.

 

[famous beagle]

You should be wired like the Schematic shows from Seymour Duncan - I don’t know how the humbucker pickup would work with a RWRP pickup because it uses the RW to create a humbucker with a single coil - when combined with a Humbucker I’m not sure what it will do.
View attachment 149920

Thanks. Yep, that's exactly what I've done.

I've attached a recording here that moves through the positions from bridge to neck one at a time. The fourth one is what I'm talking about. I don't know about y'all, but I've never heard an in-between position sound so comparatively weak and thin.

 

[Papanate]

Thanks. Yep, that's exactly what I've done.

I've attached a recording here that moves through the positions from bridge to neck one at a time. The fourth one is what I'm talking about. I don't know about y'all, but I've never heard an in-between position sound so comparatively weak and thin.

The sound is out of phase - and I think it’s the Little 59 is a humbucker - when you pair the RWRP and the Lil 59 it cancels instead of combines - I’m sure there is some special wiring - i.e. reverse the wiring when the two are combined - and then regular wiring for the two single coils.

 

[famous beagle]

The sound is out of phase - and I think it’s the Little 59 is a humbucker - when you pair the RWRP and the Lil 59 it cancels instead of combines - I’m sure there is some special wiring - i.e. reverse the wiring when the two are combined - and then regular wiring for the two single coils.

The out-of-phase sound you're hearing (the fourth phrase on my recording) is not involving the Little 59 at all. It's the middle/neck position, which are both single coils (the middle being RWRP).

Are you saying that the Little 59 could still be causing the issue somehow?

 

[RFR]

The sound is out of phase - and I think it’s the Little 59 is a humbucker - when you pair the RWRP and the Lil 59 it cancels instead of combines - I’m sure there is some special wiring - i.e. reverse the wiring when the two are combined - and then regular wiring for the two single coils.

I have a strat with a Duncan hot rails. I reversed the hot rails. No more out of phase. But it was in position 4. Is your out of phase in position 2?

 

[famous beagle]

I have a strat with a Duncan hot rails. I reversed the hot rails. No more out of phase. But it was in position 4. Is your out of phase in position 2?

I can't find a standard for numbering the positions. Some say bridge is 1, and others say neck is 1.

Mine sounds of out phase when it's in the neck/middle position. The bridge/middle position sounds fine.

 

[ashcat_lt]

Plug the guitar into your interface and start recording. Switch to the Neck pickup. Take a screwdriver or something similar, slowly place it on the pole piece of the pickup and then very quickly pull it away. Now switch to the middle and do the same with that one. Now do it on the bridge. Stop recording and compare the resulting waveforms. Do they all jump the same way? They are in phase for string sensing. If one goes the other way, the output polarity is flipped. We still can't say if that's because of winding direction or magnet polarity. Swapping the wires will put the string sensing back in phase, and whether the noise cancels or adds will tell us the rest.

You can of course check the relative magnetic polarity of the pickups. If the pickups were outside the guitar, you could just try to put them together face-to-face. If they stick, they're RP. If you have even a fridge magnet you can try to push the same side of it onto each pickup. If it sticks to one and not the other, they're RP. This doesn't tell us about the winding direction, but that is easily changed.

Now there's this question about what happens when you combine the RWRP middle with the HB bridge. Frankly, you're trying too hard. One of the HB coils is RWRP compared to the other. This means the noise cancels and the strings add. Then the SC is RWRP with one of the HB coils. Fine. As long as they're wired so the strings add, the strings add. The noise has nothing to cancel against, but there's certainly no reason it has to sound out of phase. Now, if you were going to split that HB, you'd want to make sure that you are splitting to the coil which will hum-cancel against the middle SC. Otherwise, we just make sure the screwdriver test goes in the same direction and we're as good as we're going to get.

 

[famous beagle]

Plug the guitar into your interface and start recording. Switch to the Neck pickup. Take a screwdriver or something similar, slowly place it on the pole piece of the pickup and then very quickly pull it away. Now switch to the middle and do the same with that one. Now do it on the bridge. Stop recording and compare the resulting waveforms. Do they all jump the same way? They are in phase for string sensing. If one goes the other way, the output polarity is flipped. We still can't say if that's because of winding direction or magnet polarity. Swapping the wires will put the string sensing back in phase, and whether the noise cancels or adds will tell us the rest.

You can of course check the relative magnetic polarity of the pickups. If the pickups were outside the guitar, you could just try to put them together face-to-face. If they stick, they're RP. If you have even a fridge magnet you can try to push the same side of it onto each pickup. If it sticks to one and not the other, they're RP. This doesn't tell us about the winding direction, but that is easily changed.

Now there's this question about what happens when you combine the RWRP middle with the HB bridge. Frankly, you're trying to hard. One of the HB coils is RWRP compared to the other. This means the noise cancels and the strings add. Then the SC is RWRP with one of the HB coils. Fine. As long as they're wired so the strings add, the strings add. The noise has nothing to cancel against, but there's certainly no reason it has to sound out of phase. Now, if you were going to split that HB, you'd want to make sure that you are splitting to the coil which will hum-cancel against the middle SC. Otherwise, we just make sure the screwdriver test goes in the same direction and we're as good as we're going to get.

Thanks for the info, and I can certainly try that. But I just want to reiterate that I'm not having any issues at all with the humbucking pickup in the bridge. It sounds fine, as does the bridge/middle position, which is both the Little 59 humbucker and the (supposedly) RWRP single coil.

The position where I'm having the issue is the neck/middle position, which involves the two single coils (the "standard" one in the neck and the RWRP in the middle). The humbucker shouldn't even be in the circuit at that point, should it be?

 

[ashcat_lt]

The humbucker shouldn't even be in the circuit at that point, should it be?

Well no, BUT, IF the bridge and middle are in phase AND the neck and middle are not, it tends to indicate that it’s actually the neck pickup that’s the issue. Reversing middle might just fix position 4 and break position 2.

I don’t think you answered my question about hum, and I can’t listen to your upload right now. Does the hum get quieter in N+M compared to either of those pickups alone?

 

[Old Music Guy]

I picked this up using ChatGPT/Open AI> I asked the question:
what happens when you wire a RWRP pickup in the middle position with a humbucker in the bridge position

ChatGPT said:​

When you wire a RWRP single coil in the middle position with a humbucker in the bridge position, a few different things happen, depending on how they are wired together and used. Let’s break it down:

---

Wiring & Sound Scenarios​

1.​

• Middle (RWRP Single Coil):
  
  • Functions as a regular single coil.
  • Will still pick up 60-cycle hum like any normal single coil.
• Bridge (Humbucker):
  
  • Functions normally.
  • Cancels hum internally due to its two coils wired in opposite phase and polarity.

No interaction between the pickups in this case — each works on its own.

---

2.​

This is where it gets more interesting — it depends how they are wired:

If Wired in Phase and Correct Polarity:​

• The RWRP pickup and one coil of the humbucker may act together to cancel hum, partially.
• You can get some hum-canceling effect, but not guaranteed, because:
  
  • A humbucker has two coils, and you’re blending it with a single coil.
  • Unless you split the humbucker (coil-split it to one coil only), the interaction is more complex and may not be fully hum-canceling.

If Out of Phase:​

• The middle + bridge sound will be thin and hollow due to phase cancellation.
• This can be corrected by reversing the hot and ground of one pickup.

---

Key Technical Notes​

RWRP Does NOT Mean "Humbucking with a Humbucker":​

• RWRP is designed to cancel hum with another single coil, not with a humbucker.
• For true hum cancellation when combining pickups, both pickups must:
  
  • Have opposite magnetic polarity
  • Be wired electrically out of phase
  • Be of similar coil configuration

In this case, because a single coil and humbucker are different beasts, hum canceling is not guaranteed — especially if the humbucker is not split.

---

Recommended Options:​

If you want hum canceling in the middle+bridge position:​

• Coil-split the humbucker and combine it with the RWRP middle pickup.
  
  • This gives you two single coils with opposite wind/polarity → potential for hum canceling.
• Be sure to test and match phase and polarity carefully.

 

[Old Music Guy]

I can't find a standard for numbering the positions. Some say bridge is 1, and others say neck is 1.

Position 1 is the switch back towards the bridge pup. Position 2 is "forward" one click, and so on until position 5 is all the way forward towards the neck pup.
Also from AI: This is the "standard" nomenclature for switch positions.

Standard Strat 5-way positions:​

Position	Pickup(s) Active
1	Bridge only
2	Bridge + Middle (parallel)
3	Middle only
4	Middle + Neck (parallel)
5	Neck only

Also take into account (and I've made this mistake more times than I care to admit) when wiring the switch, make sure that you look at the switch FROM THE TOP to match up the contacts. From the rear (soldering side) it's reversed front to back.
You've wired Strats, so I know you know this, but it gets me EVERY time.