Room sound when direct micing

[NL5]

IIRC they (incl. me) were mostly saying it doesn't have a "huge" effect as you claimed.

No, most were saying it had no effect. Or "essentially" no effect.

That's funny, really. I think I basically wrote along the same lines in the other thread and was laughed at...

I didn't see where you said that, and I agreed with you on every post except one, and it had nothing to do with pulling a mic back.

Ok. I must be tone deaf not to hear this "huge" difference.

Did you read what I posted? Thought not. If you don't hear any difference between those two though, I really have nothing more I can even say. I will tell more about those two samples when more people have given their input.

 

[NL5]

Here is the same first sample and a new sample second. I would call it a pretty big difference. Especially in the areas pointed out in the other thread. I'll explain more about what I did and what I hear after some more input. I will say, the difference should be pretty glaring. But again, my definition of a "huge" difference may not even matter to you. Anything my wife can tell the difference on, I consider "huge" LOL.

http://www.lightningmp3.com/upload/guitartest2.wav

Also, can anybody listening to the samples state if one or the other sounds better in each clip, and why. I'm quite curious to hear the results.

 

[JuliánFernández]

I would agree 100%.

And let me just say, a lot of what I am saying is my opinion, but also based on the physics, and my experience recording. Also, what I may consider a huge improvement, others may consider small, or not even notice a difference. To me this isn't a game of inches, but of millimeters. EVERYTHING matters, and everythings adds or subtracts from the final product.

Anyway, after setting up my guitar cab experiment, I realized I can't roll it around very good by myself, and don't want to dump 4k worth of gear off of it. So, I was only able to do a small test for now. I will not say what I did for this one until after people have weighed in. Do they sound the same? If not, what's different about them?

http://www.lightningmp3.com/upload/guitartest.wav

.

I can´t hear that much of difference in this case... Both sounds seems to be equally usuable...

 

[six]

No, most were saying it had no effect. Or "essentially" no effect.

if you say so.

I didn't see where you said that, and I agreed with you on every post except one, and it had nothing to do with pulling a mic back.

ok.

Did you read what I posted? Thought not. If you don't hear any difference between those two though, I really have nothing more I can even say. I will tell more about those two samples when more people have given their input.

yes, I read what you posted: you did a test. and the sample contains two recordings where I'm supposed to hear a difference.
I don't hear ANY difference. That means probably that I'm not very responsive to whatever there is to hear, but it also means most definitely that the difference isn't huge.


edit: in "guitartest2.wav" i'd say the second example has a wee little tiny bit more "room"... although I think only for the first few beats. But I still stick to what I said about "guitartest.wav" .

 

[ggunn]

Is it not safe to say that the closer you get to amp with a mic the less room noise you pick up?

Not exactly. The closer you get the mic to the speaker, the higher the ratio of near field sound (sound from the speaker) to reflective field sound (sound from the room) the mic picks up. The amount of room "noise" (reflective field sound) the mic picks up is constant for small moves of the mic.

 

[NL5]

yes, I read what you posted: you did a test. and the sample contains two recordings where I'm supposed to hear a difference.
I don't hear ANY difference. That means probably that I'm not very responsive to whatever there is to hear, but it also means most definitely that the difference isn't huge.

I'm gonna cut you some slack, because I assume English is not your first language either, but where did I say that? I said -

"Anyway, after setting up my guitar cab experiment, I realized I can't roll it around very good by myself, and don't want to dump 4k worth of gear off of it. So, I was only able to do a small test for now. I will not say what I did for this one until after people have weighed in. Do they sound the same? If not, what's different about them?"

I asked if they sound the same or not? Not that there is a huge difference. But you seem to have a comprehension problem, so I'll leave it at that. I stated I couldn't get the cab into another room, so that should have been a big tipoff to what was contained in the two samples. Frig. Why do I even bother. I really am a dumbass.

 

[NL5]

Not exactly. The closer you get the mic to the speaker, the higher the ratio of near field sound (sound from the speaker) to reflective field sound (sound from the room) the mic picks up. The amount of room "noise" (reflective field sound) the mic picks up is constant for small moves of the mic.

Good point. I assumed by room noise he meant reflected sound and not actual room noise. Oops.

 

[six]

I'm gonna cut you some slack, because I assume English is not your first language either, but where did I say that? I said -

what?

sorry, but it seems it has to be broken down, and I'm not quite sure if it's because of myself, of you or of the combination of us.

"Anyway, after setting up my guitar cab experiment, I realized I can't roll it around very good by myself, and don't want to dump 4k worth of gear off of it. So, I was only able to do a small test for now. I will not say what I did for this one until after people have weighed in. Do they sound the same? If not, what's different about them?"

hello, anybody home?
you want us to tell you if they sound the same or different to us.
I say: to me it sounds the same, which CAN be due to my perception BUT also shows that IF there REALLY is an audible difference, it can't be too HUGE.

Comprende?

I asked if they sound the same or not? Not that there is a huge difference.

see above.

But you seem to have a comprehension problem, so I'll leave it at that.

Yeah sure.

 

[NL5]

And as an added bonus, I just did a null test with the two samples in the second guitar test. Volumes left as they were, just duped the track, lined up the samples at the sample level (I'm pretty sure at least), and inverted phase on one of them.

Don't listen till after you've made your assessment of the samples as to not bias you one way or the other. Thanks!

http://www.lightningmp3.com/upload/nulltest.wav

 

[ggunn]

The answer to the larger question is "it depends". How much the recorded sound of a close miced speaker is affected by the room depends on the reflectivity of the room, the size of the room, the loudness of the speaker, the distance of the mic from the speaker, the orientation of the mic to the speaker, the position of the mic on the speaker cone, the design of the mic...

Mathematically speaking, of course, there will always be SPL due to the reflectivity of the room present at the mic head irrespective of all the above variables, even in an anechoic chamber, since no such room, no matter how well designed, has perfect negative infinite dB reflectivity.

Will you hear it in your recording? Like I said, it depends.

 

[NL5]

hello, anybody home?
you want us to tell you if they sound the same or different to us.
I say: to me it sounds the same, which CAN be due to my perception BUT also shows that IF there REALLY is an audible difference, it can't be too HUGE.

I didn't say there was a huge difference in those samples. I asked if you hear any difference. Comprende? They were done in the same room. There is definitely a difference in the two, but not huge, even IMO, but I was curious if people could hear a difference and what they heard. Christ, I could post to completely identical samples and some people would hear a difference.

I can null those two as well I guess, but I thought it was interesting that just moving the amp within the one room made an audible difference. If you don't hear it, great. Put your amp wherever you want and call it good. If you can't hear a difference in the second test either, then I really have nothing to say.

 

[ggunn]

Good point. I assumed by room noise he meant reflected sound and not actual room noise. Oops.

Reflected sound is exactly what he and I both meant, though spurious room noise, if there is any, would be included. It doesn't make any difference.

 

[NL5]

Here is a nulltest from the first sample. it's a bit confusing because nulltest.wav goes with guitartest2.wav, and nulltest2,wav goes with guitartest.wav. You can easily hear that there is much more difference between the files on the second guitartest.

http://www.lightningmp3.com/upload/nulltest.wav

.

 

[six]

[oooooooooh, where's that part gone???] I didn't say there was a huge difference in those samples.

although I shouldn't really write to a 38-year-old who calls me a "fucking retard" just out of paranoia or whatever, I'd somehow like to make clear that I didn't say you said there was a huge difference in those samples. it was just a comment implying that IF it were huge, I'd worry a bit about my ears.

... and this second last paragraph, I only wrote to try to show you that you're chasing ghosts, really.

 

[ggunn]

I've seen many many discussions of this type this break down into posturing about physics (usually by folks who have never formally studied the subject beyond the high school level), name-calling, putdowns, etc., and it's really pretty silly. Hearing is subjective, and no one's perception is absolute. Pick up a text on psychoacoustics some time and try to slog through it if you really want to get confused. It really comes down to this: If you hear a difference, then it's real to you. There is no unambiguous, absolute, gold standard authority. Two people can listen to the same thing and hear it very differently, and no matter how emphatically or abusively or arrogantly a person tries to push his or her opinion forward, it's still just his subjective perception.

 

[NL5]

Ok, since I got several requests for what I did in the tests, I'll give a rundown of what I did. I'll leave the interpretation to the individual.

The drum test was done with a snare mounted on a stand, and a mic mounted to the snare about 1 inch from the head at approx a 45 degree angle (as I would do when recording - only not normally mounted to the snare). I hit the snare as consistently as possible in all three samples. I would say the hits are all 99% the same, and were struck within a 2" circle in the center of the snare. The three groups of samples are in three different rooms, and the bulk of the difference in the sound (if you hear any) is the different rooms. In this test, I had to rely on my playing consistency, so I can't say that 100% of the sound is the room. Of course, the earliest reflections will be from the floor, and in all tests, the snare was EXACTLY the same distance from the floor, and all flooring was of the same material.

The first guitar test was done with a combo amp on top of my rolling bass cab. The mic was mounted on top of the cabinet as well, as to maintain a constant mic placement in all the tests. The samples were all of the same clip re-amped through the amp with all settings 100% the same. So, in this test everything is EXACTLY the same, except for the room. In the first test, as I stated earlier, I was unable to really move the cab much on my own, so I took two samples in the same room, just from different locations. Again though, the first reflection point is the same no matter the room, due to the setup being mounted on top of my cab, so that may mean something to you - it does to me, but I'll refrain from inserting any of my personal opinions.

In the second guitar test, I used the first sample from the first test, and took the setup into a smaller room, and re-amped the same signal. Again, everything is EXACTLY the same, except for the room.

The null tests are between the two samples in each test. I nulled the first clip in the first test with itself, and it indeed did null 100%, so the null test is accurate as well. Be aware, that the nulltest.wav goes with the guitartest2.wav, and the nulltest2.wav goes with the guitartest.wav. Of course, you could try the nulltest yourself to verify.


Hopefully somebody found this useful. I know I did.

 

[NL5]

Here is a nulltest from the first sample. it's a bit confusing because nulltest.wav goes with guitartest2.wav, and nulltest2,wav goes with guitartest.wav. You can easily hear that there is much more difference between the files on the second guitartest.

http://www.lightningmp3.com/upload/nulltest2.wav

.

Oops, I just realized the link was wrong. Here is nulltest2 http://www.lightningmp3.com/upload/nulltest2.wav - and it goes with the first set of guitarsample - guitartest.wav