Michael Jones
New member
I had read in a book, sometime ago, that there is an ideal W:L:H ratio of dimensions for both a tracking room, and a control room.
Does anyone know what these are?
Does anyone know what these are?
John Sayers
Solar Power!!
Knightfly has posted some calculators for this stuff in another thread - Unfortunately these are all based on rectangular rooms which I try to avoid 
cheers
JOhn
cheers
JOhn
Roker1
New member
so you like the square shaped rooms more John...do you....just wandering because the space that i've got available to do something in, would be = two square rooms.....
Roker1
New member
so John, what would be the main reson(s) for you not liking the rectangular shapes....?? thanks
Beathoven
New member
Roker1: A square is a rectangle.
Beathoven
http://www.nowhereradio.com/beathoven/singles
(P.S.: The inverse is not always true
)
Beathoven
http://www.nowhereradio.com/beathoven/singles
(P.S.: The inverse is not always true
)
Beathoven
New member
John Sayers
Solar Power!!
well firstly with rectangular shapes yu start off with three sets of parallel walls which create standing waves, which are basically buildups in the room - you can walk in and out of them in some rooms - i.e there's no bass here but too much if I stand there - which is correct??
secondly it's the aim of a control room to direct the sound from the speakers to the engineer/mixer. (It is a CONTROL room
)If you look at the control room designs I use the speakers are directing the sound behind the engineer.
check out these links
http://www.saecollege.de/reference_material/pages/Roomodes.htm
http://www.saecollege.de/reference_material/pages/Variable Plans.htm
cheers
John
knightfly
GrouchyOldFartOnBatteries
Just so we all understand each other here, I do NOT advocate rectangular rooms, ESPECIALLY NOT square ones - I just have no idea how to write a spreadsheet that would calculate room response to anything as complex as a good RFZ room. When I start construction of my next studio, I doubt that any except possibly iso-booths will have square corners.
The only reason I posted the spreadsheets for rectangular rooms was to help people who are stuck with small rooms which IMHO would not benefit enough from splayed walls to be worth the price of impacted user space. My opinions here are coming from experience trying to work in small rooms, and from conjecture (wishful thinking, perhaps) that wall treatments for flutter echoes, etc, take up less space than giving up 3 feet of space at one end of a small room for the splayed walls approach. I don't argue that splayed isn't better, just that it can be very impractical in some situations.
Also, a lot of people here have no way in hell of building anything substantial until they move out of their parents home/rented apartment/buddy's place, and for them it helps to know what to expect from a particular (available) space. If they know they will have a problem with lower freq's and need absorption, they can learn that thin treatments won't work and either buy or build a portable, thicker solution that will actually work.
Michael, to answer your initial question, one of the several popular room ratios alluded to in several of Everest's books is 1:1.6:2.33 - there are several others, but after I wrote roomtune about 12 years ago, I discovered that his so-called ideals were really not. For example, the ratio I listed above could be satisfied by a room with a 10 foot ceiling, and 16 x 23.3 foot walls. the spreadsheet, however, shows better modal distribution by shortening the length to 22.5 feet. Everest states that axial modes shouldn't be closer that about 5 hZ to each other, nor farther apart than about 20 hZ. Yet the particular "ideal" I mentioned has W2 and L3 within 2 hZ of each other. Interestingly, the sheet I discovered at studiotips.com doesn't show any glaring differences between the two, so I still use both. If you're interested, here is the thread, scroll down about 5 posts to the links...
http://www.homerecording.com/bbs/showthread.php?s=&threadid=57675
BTW, John, or Barefoot, or Mr. Everest if you're lurking, I'm still trying to figure out if you put up a splayed shell for flush mounting your speakers and accomplishing an RFZ mix position, do the modes still follow the outer dimensions, or do you create even more modes, or what? I haven.t yet succeeded in wrapping my pathetically pulverized grey cells around that concept... Steve
The only reason I posted the spreadsheets for rectangular rooms was to help people who are stuck with small rooms which IMHO would not benefit enough from splayed walls to be worth the price of impacted user space. My opinions here are coming from experience trying to work in small rooms, and from conjecture (wishful thinking, perhaps) that wall treatments for flutter echoes, etc, take up less space than giving up 3 feet of space at one end of a small room for the splayed walls approach. I don't argue that splayed isn't better, just that it can be very impractical in some situations.
Also, a lot of people here have no way in hell of building anything substantial until they move out of their parents home/rented apartment/buddy's place, and for them it helps to know what to expect from a particular (available) space. If they know they will have a problem with lower freq's and need absorption, they can learn that thin treatments won't work and either buy or build a portable, thicker solution that will actually work.
Michael, to answer your initial question, one of the several popular room ratios alluded to in several of Everest's books is 1:1.6:2.33 - there are several others, but after I wrote roomtune about 12 years ago, I discovered that his so-called ideals were really not. For example, the ratio I listed above could be satisfied by a room with a 10 foot ceiling, and 16 x 23.3 foot walls. the spreadsheet, however, shows better modal distribution by shortening the length to 22.5 feet. Everest states that axial modes shouldn't be closer that about 5 hZ to each other, nor farther apart than about 20 hZ. Yet the particular "ideal" I mentioned has W2 and L3 within 2 hZ of each other. Interestingly, the sheet I discovered at studiotips.com doesn't show any glaring differences between the two, so I still use both. If you're interested, here is the thread, scroll down about 5 posts to the links...
http://www.homerecording.com/bbs/showthread.php?s=&threadid=57675
BTW, John, or Barefoot, or Mr. Everest if you're lurking, I'm still trying to figure out if you put up a splayed shell for flush mounting your speakers and accomplishing an RFZ mix position, do the modes still follow the outer dimensions, or do you create even more modes, or what? I haven.t yet succeeded in wrapping my pathetically pulverized grey cells around that concept... Steve
Roker1
New member
bethoven...in the jungle I live in rectangle and square are two different shapes...don't know about yours :0)
I thought that a square has 4 sides of the same length and rectangle has 4 sides as well...but here is the catch...usually two are longer (they share the same length) and the other two are shorter (and they share the same length)....
I thought that a square has 4 sides of the same length and rectangle has 4 sides as well...but here is the catch...usually two are longer (they share the same length) and the other two are shorter (and they share the same length)....
longsoughtfor
Searching for the sound
So, what is the method for computing the modes of a non rectangular room? For example Johns "Corner Control room" from the above plans link...
Do you break it down into separate parallel chunks?
The same question applies to a room with a two level ceiling... Do you compute modes for each piece?
Also, along the same lines, John, you mentioned a rule of thumb in your control room design that for 15 ft or less you don't use [rear wall] diffusion. Would that apply to recording rooms too? One of the rooms I am doing (for vocals mostly) is much shorter then 15 ft (11+) and I was wondering if I should just make it completely dead or add a broadband slot resonator.
Thanks
Kevin.
Do you break it down into separate parallel chunks?
The same question applies to a room with a two level ceiling... Do you compute modes for each piece?
Also, along the same lines, John, you mentioned a rule of thumb in your control room design that for 15 ft or less you don't use [rear wall] diffusion. Would that apply to recording rooms too? One of the rooms I am doing (for vocals mostly) is much shorter then 15 ft (11+) and I was wondering if I should just make it completely dead or add a broadband slot resonator.
Thanks
Kevin.
Beathoven
New member
Roker1 said:
That is why I mentionned at the end of my post:
P.S.: The inverse is not always true.
A Square IS a rectangle ALWAYS. But a rectangle is not always a square... Follow me? It's a mathematical fact... Hope you won't argue on this!!!
Peace bro,
Beathoven
http://www.nowhereradio.com/beathoven/singles
cordura21
New member
Just to add: rectangle comes from latin 'rectangulus', meaning 'having a right (90°) angle'.
Michael Jones
New member
Knightfly, rest assured I don't fit into this catagory.
Isn't it more practicle, from a construction stand point, to work out nominal EXTERIOR dimensions first, and then apply our studio construction standards to the INTERIOR of that space? I mean it's a lot easier to contract a foundation that is 30'X40' than one that is 32'X46.6'. Then work within the INTERIOR of that 30X40 space to tune the room after the outside walls are done. Then what "floats" dimension wise, is the space between the interior studio walls. Follow me??
Yeah, those numbers look familiar. And I believe John's was 5mX6mX2.3m for a MINIMUM sized control room. Is that right? Converting that to a ratio I'd end up with 2.2wX2.6LX1.0H. Which seems to be pretty consistant with your findings.
Thats the obvious.
Now, clear up some mud for me if you can.
Let's say I run roomtune. I understand the frequency calculations, and how they are all dependent on one another, but what exactly am I trying to acheive with it? It seems like, by varying the room dimensions, I'm just chasing frequencies around. So what is ideal?
And roomtune is based on a rectangular room right, and not a "splayed wall" design?
Thanks again.
knightfly
GrouchyOldFartOnBatteries
Hey Michael -
"Knightfly, rest assured I don't fit into this catagory.
Isn't it more practicle, from a construction stand point, to work out nominal EXTERIOR dimensions first, and then apply our studio construction standards to the INTERIOR of that space? I mean it's a lot easier to contract a foundation that is 30'X40' than one that is 32'X46.6'. Then work within the INTERIOR of that 30X40 space to tune the room after the outside walls are done. Then what "floats" dimension wise, is the space between the interior studio walls. Follow me?? "
First, I've seen the pix of your studio and was NOT directing that portion of my post at you; Second, I "followed you" several years ago, that's part of why I wrote roomtune. Even though it's crude, it's still useful for doing exactly what you outlined above. If you downloaded it from the ProRec site, there is a half-assed doc file with basic methods of use included in the self-extracting .exe file. I tend to start with outside dim's, subtract 2' each side for room to work on inner walls (snugly, for sure) then subtract 2x the nominal thickness of whatever wall construction I'm considering, and start there with length/width. Once I find two dim's that don't have coincidence closer than 4-5 hZ, I add in the ceiling (H) dimension and look for even spread of freq's from 20 to about 300 - according to Everest, higher isn't as important and lower isn't audible, or recordable, or whatever. Everest states in several of his books that modes should be at least 4-5 hZ apart and not greater than about 20 hZ for minimum coloration, so that's what I look for in roomtune. I like this sheet mainly because it's really fast for multiple "what-if's" of a single dimension. Just use the enter key instead of arrow keys for data entry, and keep typing #'s in til things even out. In excel, if you hover over the bar the freq. will pop up, so you can quickly tell if any two nearly even height bars are closer than 4-5 hZ.
Once I get close, I'll then open MODESv2, convert my dim's to inches, enter them, do CTRL S CTRL C, and look at the Bonello distribution page to mainly make sure the blue lines are taller. You can also look at the mode strength page, but that only tells you if two harmonics are EXACTLY coincident. Roomtune shows you if any harmonics are too close, which is why I use both sheets to compare.
Finally, the goal of roomtune is no two axial modes with the same resonant freq, or within 4 to 5 hZ, and no more than about 20 hZ between harmonics. (This doesn't mean that the bars have to form a perfect stairstep, the order isn't really important.) Either condition will cause uneven response in the room (depending on where you stand/listen/play, as John pointed out) and will require MORE treatment than a room with no such anomalies.
Yes, roomtune and MODESv2 are both for rectangular rooms only. For vaulted ceilings, use the average height and don't worry much about "problems" attributed to that dimension. In fact, in one of Everest's earlier books I have, he commented that Tangential and Oblique modes were more or less a waste of time worring about, because (rough quote) "Once you put any furniture or gear or people in the room, it all changes anyway" -
I'm still in the planning stages for my next room(s) project, and it will start as a 36' x 48' (outside dim's) with 2x6 stud walls, then inner rooms floated with 6" steel studs and 3 layers of sheet rock - look at the SAE site's STC link, near the bottom. I've been shuffling spaces around somewhat, looking for the best combo of room ratios for a good tracking room, drum room, vocal booth, control room (lotta synths, etc) and instrument storage. Ceiling height will be whatever I need for correct ratios/acoustics, as I'm now planning on building from scratch, and I'll most likely end up with ZERO rectangular rooms other than maybe an airlock and small vocal booth. 36 x 48 seems large until you start laying out the rooms as you would like them, then 48 x 80 makes you drool... Steve
"Knightfly, rest assured I don't fit into this catagory.
Isn't it more practicle, from a construction stand point, to work out nominal EXTERIOR dimensions first, and then apply our studio construction standards to the INTERIOR of that space? I mean it's a lot easier to contract a foundation that is 30'X40' than one that is 32'X46.6'. Then work within the INTERIOR of that 30X40 space to tune the room after the outside walls are done. Then what "floats" dimension wise, is the space between the interior studio walls. Follow me?? "
First, I've seen the pix of your studio and was NOT directing that portion of my post at you; Second, I "followed you" several years ago, that's part of why I wrote roomtune. Even though it's crude, it's still useful for doing exactly what you outlined above. If you downloaded it from the ProRec site, there is a half-assed doc file with basic methods of use included in the self-extracting .exe file. I tend to start with outside dim's, subtract 2' each side for room to work on inner walls (snugly, for sure) then subtract 2x the nominal thickness of whatever wall construction I'm considering, and start there with length/width. Once I find two dim's that don't have coincidence closer than 4-5 hZ, I add in the ceiling (H) dimension and look for even spread of freq's from 20 to about 300 - according to Everest, higher isn't as important and lower isn't audible, or recordable, or whatever. Everest states in several of his books that modes should be at least 4-5 hZ apart and not greater than about 20 hZ for minimum coloration, so that's what I look for in roomtune. I like this sheet mainly because it's really fast for multiple "what-if's" of a single dimension. Just use the enter key instead of arrow keys for data entry, and keep typing #'s in til things even out. In excel, if you hover over the bar the freq. will pop up, so you can quickly tell if any two nearly even height bars are closer than 4-5 hZ.
Once I get close, I'll then open MODESv2, convert my dim's to inches, enter them, do CTRL S CTRL C, and look at the Bonello distribution page to mainly make sure the blue lines are taller. You can also look at the mode strength page, but that only tells you if two harmonics are EXACTLY coincident. Roomtune shows you if any harmonics are too close, which is why I use both sheets to compare.
Finally, the goal of roomtune is no two axial modes with the same resonant freq, or within 4 to 5 hZ, and no more than about 20 hZ between harmonics. (This doesn't mean that the bars have to form a perfect stairstep, the order isn't really important.) Either condition will cause uneven response in the room (depending on where you stand/listen/play, as John pointed out) and will require MORE treatment than a room with no such anomalies.
Yes, roomtune and MODESv2 are both for rectangular rooms only. For vaulted ceilings, use the average height and don't worry much about "problems" attributed to that dimension. In fact, in one of Everest's earlier books I have, he commented that Tangential and Oblique modes were more or less a waste of time worring about, because (rough quote) "Once you put any furniture or gear or people in the room, it all changes anyway" -
I'm still in the planning stages for my next room(s) project, and it will start as a 36' x 48' (outside dim's) with 2x6 stud walls, then inner rooms floated with 6" steel studs and 3 layers of sheet rock - look at the SAE site's STC link, near the bottom. I've been shuffling spaces around somewhat, looking for the best combo of room ratios for a good tracking room, drum room, vocal booth, control room (lotta synths, etc) and instrument storage. Ceiling height will be whatever I need for correct ratios/acoustics, as I'm now planning on building from scratch, and I'll most likely end up with ZERO rectangular rooms other than maybe an airlock and small vocal booth. 36 x 48 seems large until you start laying out the rooms as you would like them, then 48 x 80 makes you drool... Steve
John Sayers
Solar Power!!
Guys - about this room shape business. I had a plan (sorry I've lost it) of a Tom Hidley designed (top designer) control room in a major Nashville studio where he started off with a 13m x 13m (36ft) square!!. I've checked out some other rooms of his and found another - (attached) - it's 16' x 16'.
The huge volumes between the inner shape and the outer square shape is full of low frequency hangers which is why he quotes a flat response down to 22hz!
It's the shape he creates inside that makes up the control room sound and stops standing waves and the modal interference. I read some designer say that standing waves are part of a good room?? - to me a standing wave is where you hear a low end response in one part of the room but as you move around it changes, sometimes cancelling, sometimes adding. This doesn't happen in my control rooms, the low end response is even wherever you stand. I've heard Hidley rooms and there's no standing waves there either.
cheers
john
The huge volumes between the inner shape and the outer square shape is full of low frequency hangers which is why he quotes a flat response down to 22hz!
It's the shape he creates inside that makes up the control room sound and stops standing waves and the modal interference. I read some designer say that standing waves are part of a good room?? - to me a standing wave is where you hear a low end response in one part of the room but as you move around it changes, sometimes cancelling, sometimes adding. This doesn't happen in my control rooms, the low end response is even wherever you stand. I've heard Hidley rooms and there's no standing waves there either.
cheers
john
Attachments
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Eric Best
New member
Isn't the basic idea of a Hidley "Non Environment" room, that the front wall and floor be totally reflective and the back wall, side walls and ceiling be totally absorbent? If this is the case, there would be no mode interaction, because reflections were totally absorbed. That would make the dimensions of the room totally inconsequential. Thus making a square room useable.
What do you think, does this make sense?
Eric
What do you think, does this make sense?
Eric
John Sayers
Solar Power!!
yes Bob but to say a wall has total absorption is applicable for the high frequencies but not quite for the lower frequencies which will continue within the room - hence his room within a room design within the square.
cheers
JOhn
cheers
JOhn
E
Eric Best
New member
The designs that I've seen have about a 4ft space at the back of the room with a variety of hangers and walls made out of different materials to absorb all frequencies, and a variety of hangers on the side walls and ceiling. Has anyone ever been in a room that was designed like this? What does it sound like?
Eric
Eric
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John Sayers
Solar Power!!
Yes I have Eric and they sound fantastic. Really tight low end and clean top end. Excellent stereo imaging as well.
In some rooms he has that 4 foot space all the way around, like the room in Nashville that I mentioned before. There are a couple of Hidley rooms still going in OZ. Paradise in Sydney and Metropolis in Melbourne.
His recent projects are listed here
http://www.hidley-design.com/01_2/01_hid1/fr.html
cheers
John
In some rooms he has that 4 foot space all the way around, like the room in Nashville that I mentioned before. There are a couple of Hidley rooms still going in OZ. Paradise in Sydney and Metropolis in Melbourne.
His recent projects are listed here
http://www.hidley-design.com/01_2/01_hid1/fr.html
cheers
John