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Kryptik

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I hate for a "which mic should I buy" thread to be my first post here, but I couldn't really find a whole lot in the search for my particular situation.

I have to record drum tracks in a horrible sounding room. (Sounds like an under ground nuclear blast shelter.) The room is too big to be treated, so I figured close miking the symbols would be better so the room sound isn't so loud compared to everything else. Actually when I put the mics right up against the bell, the cymbals sound pretty phenominal anyway.

I'm using 4 Rode NT5s which will cover the ride, hh, and 2 crashes and they sound really good when miked close. The problem is I need something for 2 china cymbals. I really need to capture that woooosh sound that they make while preserving the sound of the attack.

I was thinking of either getting a couple of cheap mics for the chinas or a couple of really good mics for a couple of the other cymbals and using two of the NT5s for the chinas.

If I went for the better mics, I was looking at the SM81 or possibly the KSM condensers for hi-hats and maybe the primary crash. (My drummer doesn't use the ride very often. On songs where he does, I'd probably want to put an SM81 on the ride and move the NT5 over to the secondary crash.) I was also looking at earthworks mics, but I really don't feel like spending that much on a pair of TC30s or TC77s. I will have these mics some day, but sadly that day isn't gonna be any time soon :(.

If I went for the cheaper option, I was thinking of using a pair of Shure PG81, Samson C02, or Audio Technica ATM10a.

These would be going through an Allen and Heath GL2400 (for pres) into a Korg D32XD (pres suck).

I tend to lean more towards quality and would rather save some more $$$ to get good mics than to get the bad ones. On the other hand, if the cymbals aren't going to sound significantly better getting the better mics, I'd rather get the cheaper ones.

Any thoughts, suggestions, or advice would be appreciated.
Thanks
 
Some of my favorite drum mics are...

Kick... MD421, ATM25, D112
Snare... M201 (top), SM57 (bottom)
Hi-Hat... SM81
O.H.'s... U87's, C414's, Josephson C42's, C451, etc...

Anyway... the big reason why I'm replying to your post is to suggest using some portable Gobo/traps... and if your tight on cash you could make your own. I could post some DIY links if you like?
 
I actually made some 2x4' panels with about 6" of CO 703 glued to them. (I think I have five of them, maybe six.) They are leaned up against the wall behind the drums (where the mics are pointed to.). They help. Actually they help out ALOT despite only being four feet tall. But, the sound of the room is still too dungeony and the rest of the basement is too big to treat. Enough 703 to treat enough area around the drums would cost more than new mics and this is also our practice area and also it is not my house. I do like the C451's.

Thanks for the help on the mic selections.
 
Kryptik said:
I actually made some 2x4' panels with about 6" of CO 703 glued to them. (I think I have five of them, maybe six.) They are leaned up against the wall behind the drums (where the mics are pointed to.). They help. Actually they help out ALOT despite only being four feet tall. But, the sound of the room is still too dungeony and the rest of the basement is too big to treat. Enough 703 to treat enough area around the drums would cost more than new mics and this is also our practice area and also it is not my house. I do like the C451's.

Thanks for the help on the mic selections.
Click to expand...
You're welcome... oh and you might try using the traps you have and adding some packing/mover blankets... the thing is, I don't think your really going to get a great drum recording until you can get the drums to sound good in the room. ;)
 
You're welcome... oh and you might try using the traps you have and adding some packing/mover blankets... the thing is, I don't think your really going to get a great drum recording until you can get the drums to sound good in the room.
Click to expand...
D'oh

Do you think hanging the blankets up around the set on a cloths line would be good enough or should they be closer to the walls? I'm figuring if there is more space between the walls and the blankets the sound of the room would be weaker and less likely to pass through the blankets. Am I right on this,or should I try to treat the walls directly?

When I close mic the crash, hh, and ride cymbals they do sound better then when I just use overheads though. So, I could probably use a pair of NT5's for overheads and the two crashes and SM81's for hh and ride or crash.
 
Acoustics can basically be split into absorbing bass energy and absorbing other nasty reflections. Kinda means you need to do two main things - something high-density such as rock wool a couple of inches from the walls (to stop a wave half a wavelength from the wall), and especially in the corners of your room, and then blankets, foam, anything you can drape over a mic stand or hang from a hook that will cover up parts of your walls.

There is hope ... doesn't often feel like it but it can be done on a budget.
 
Kryptik said:
D'oh

Do you think hanging the blankets up around the set on a cloths line would be good enough or should they be closer to the walls?
Click to expand...

One of my favorite things to use to deaden the room...get some hooks that you can screw into your ceiling. then get some binder clips (http://www.artstuff.net/binder_clips.htm) that you can clip to some blankets and hang them on the hooks.
 
thajeremy said:
One of my favorite things to use to deaden the room...get some hooks that you can screw into your ceiling. then get some binder clips (http://www.artstuff.net/binder_clips.htm) that you can clip to some blankets and hang them on the hooks.
Click to expand...
Kool, thanks for the tip. :)
Kryptik said:
D'oh

Do you think hanging the blankets up around the set on a cloths line would be good enough or should they be closer to the walls? I'm figuring if there is more space between the walls and the blankets the sound of the room would be weaker and less likely to pass through the blankets. Am I right on this,or should I try to treat the walls directly?

When I close mic the crash, hh, and ride cymbals they do sound better then when I just use overheads though. So, I could probably use a pair of NT5's for overheads and the two crashes and SM81's for hh and ride or crash.
Click to expand...
Yeah, some packing blankets with the 5 or 6 bass traps you have should work... or at least it's worth a try, you've got to try something and at least this is cheap. You may need to experiment some with the placement. I'd start with them Simi-around the drums... kind of like in the picture on Ethan Winer's "RealTraps" page http://www.realtraps.com/products.htm scroll down 5 pictures to the Drum pic... try alternating the traps and blankets... trap, blanket, trap, blanket, etc. If that doesn’t work, experiment... you should be able to make it a lot better than it is. Good luck, have fun, and whatever you do... don’t give up. :)

EDIT: Oh, and the SM81 is my favorite HH mic... and I favor the SM81's over the NT5's for OH's... what other mics do you have?

And what mic do you have on the kick?

Oops... also, yeah cloths line, the clips thajeremy pointed out, or just hang them over some boom stands.
 
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Another $100 in 703 would go a long way. Your best bet is putting those 6" (that is super thick BTW) traps in the corners and getting some more 1" 703 and putting it sparingly around the room. You don't have to cover the entire wall (and usually shouldn't). Just put one up on the wall and the next one about a foot or two over. Place them around the drum area and include the ceiling if possible.
 
I agree... but, the problem with that is... Kryptik said it's not his room (he's not the home owner), and the room is hugh... so he said that would cost too much. Any other ideas? Thanks, Don. :)
 
Thanks for the link. That's pretty much what I had in mind as far as where I'd hang the blankets.

The room is a 60'x35' unfinnished basement with nothing in it except for drums, a guitar and bass amp, some pa gear and recording equipment. There is a little bit of stuff that is stored there, but it doesn't really take up any amount of space. 703 is something like $60 for what amounts to 8' by 8' by 2" (it think). Thats $150 for the back wall alone (sparse spacing). Either way, my drummer doesn't want me treating it, and I really don't want to spend alot on what I won't be taking home afterwards and really don't need for anything other than this project.

As far as mics go, I have a Beta52 on the resonant kick head and an SM57 (only to capture the click) on the beater head. I was thinking of putting my NTK a couple of feet away from the kick drum. I just worry that a tube mic would make things sound to muddy. But the plan was to record samples of the drums when I can control the room and splice them in to the proper tracks using Drumagog, or Pro-Tools. But I really need to make sure I get really good cymbal sounds because I dought that those can be replaced with any real level of accuracy or with any real sonic integrity. (sorry for the big words, I'm not trying to sound more important than I really am. I just couldn't think of anything better. :)) I have a bunch of 57s on all the other drums and 2 pairs of NT5's to capture cymbals. I've actually been looking for better mics, but I'd rather try and make do with these, or maybe just get the SM81s or a pair of KSMs.

I know the auto splice thing is kind of cheating, but this way I can experiment with different sounds and I don't have to make my drummer hit each drum all day while I play with knobs and buttons. It also seems like alot more fun ;). I can hear it now, birds chirping for each kick strike, a miramba for toms and some wierd voice-over for the snare.

Thanks for the help guys. I really do appreciate it.
 
You're welcome... it's fun helping people and that's what hr.com should be all about IMO. Out of all the mics you've mentioned... I think the Shure SM81's work best for cymbals.
 
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