Richard Monroe.. you were right... (recording acoustic guitar)

[Armistice]

You remember the thread I started last week about having continual problems getting a decent sound at home with my acoustic using NT5s and MXL603Ss?

Your advice was to throw money at the problem.

I went to a high end audio store yesterday, armed with guitar. They had two pres set up for me - an Apogee and an Avalon VT - and two mics - AKG451B & Neumann KM184. I also took an MXL603S and an NT5 with me for comparison purposes. Seeing they had a AKG414-TLII in the store, I asked them to give me that one as well (I actually thought it was a ULS at the time), based on your recommendation.

Unfortunately I could only test in headphones, albeit good ones, and had no way to burn my tests to CD to take home and listen, however that didn't really prove necessary.

My MXL603S and NT5 had that fundamental harsh tone I hated through both pres (although I later experimented with EQ and a touch of compression on the Avalon and got the NT5 sounding reasonable). The MXL603S was better than the NT5 though.

The AKG451 was a bit of a revelation - the sales guy told me it was his preferred SDC for acoustic, and I could see why - beautiful balanced tone, no high end harshness. Tried it through both pres and was happy with it.

KM184 I didn't actually like all that much - to me it was only marginally better than the MXL603Sand NT5 - high end harshness again.

Then I tried the AKG414 - loved it. Just at 12th fret - no mucking around trying to find the optimum position, sounded good strumming, picking, fingerstyle. Good through the Apogee but really good through the Avalon.

I bought the AKG414-TLII and the AKG451 - I only realised it wasn't the ULS when he was putting it in the box - I read the manual on the way home and saw the "enhanced" response from 3K up and was a bit worried, as I'd only listened in headphones, that it may not be as good as I thought.

I've been mucking around with it over the last 24 hours as time allows, and I'm really impressed with it.

Thanks for the tip!

The store guys said basically that my pres were quite OK - could be better, but that the mics I was using was the problem, and my testing with the new mics confirms this, so I'm hanging onto the Mindprint Envoice and Presonus MP20 at this stage - would love that Avalon though...

So MXL603Ss and NT5s - well, might work for some, but not me with what I'm trying to do. I'll probably sell the NT5s and hang onto the MXLSs.

 

[Scinx]

Now that youve seen the light...beware of the evil roadside robbers who hide in the bushes around here...you may be talking to yourself saying "maybe more expensive gear is more expensive for a reason"...and the highway robbers will jump out and ambush you around here...thanks for the story...sometimes - money/new gear is the answer...now Im gonna go hide...

 

[JMarcomb]

Nice pick! they are an industry standard for ac guitar.

I hope to have a pair someday... but I prefer a pair around 1970 .. but big $'s, so i'll have to wait

I wanted this set on ebay... but the price got way out of hand... they were in excellent condition from the '60's ... the sound of em are compaired to running your hand down silk

i think the price went well over $2000 for the pair ... never had any vocals go through em' either

 

[DJL]

Now that youve seen the light...beware of the evil roadside robbers who hide in the bushes around here...you may be talking to yourself saying "maybe more expensive gear is more expensive for a reason"...and the highway robbers will jump out and ambush you around here...thanks for the story...sometimes - money/new gear is the answer...now Im gonna go hide...

You can say that again... but sometimes we have to learn the hard way, I know I did, and now I'm paying for it.

 

[tdukex]

Congrats on the new great gear.

And who was it who told you to take your guitar to a place with high-end stuff and try out various combos first before buying something? Of course I also told you that what you had would produce a very good sound. I guess when I get a chance to hear some higher end SDCs I may very well change my mind. And now that you have reported back I am going to be somewhat unsatisfied with my 603s and MC012 until a couple of years down the road when I try some higher end stuff myself and probably upgrade. Gotta get more good vocal mics first.

 

[chessrock]

Armistace,

I don't know for sure, but I'm going to hazzard a guess that you record either solo accoustic, or rather sparse arrangements where the accoustic is moreless featured.

I'll also hazzard a guess that you like to strum maybe a little harder, or perhaps your guitar just has a very crisp tone to it naturally.

If that's the case, then I can totally see where you needed something more on the natural side of things with less high end juice to it.

A lot of us here who do rather dense mixes with a lot going on will often have the opposite problem, in that a lot of our accoustic guitar tracks get kinda' lost in a busy mix and they tend to muddy things up. Then there are those of us who mic a Nylon Stringer from time to time, and those aren't fun. Unfortunately for guys like you, a lot of the Small diaphragm condensers are marketed to guys like us who need the high end bump to cut through a busy mix or to add luster to a dull guitar.

So in other words, guys like me have basically made it difficult for guys like you to find a satisfactory accoustic guitar tone -- and thus forcing you to spend more money than you'd otherwise have to. So on behalf of all the other guys like me, I'd like to apologize for making things unnecessarily complicated. Please accept our humble apologies.

 

[ausrock]

Armi,

What kind of $ did this set you back and which retailer did you go to?

 

[acorec]

You remember the thread I started last week about having continual problems getting a decent sound at home with my acoustic using NT5s and MXL603Ss?

Your advice was to throw money at the problem.

I went to a high end audio store yesterday, armed with guitar. They had two pres set up for me - an Apogee and an Avalon VT - and two mics - AKG451B & Neumann KM184. I also took an MXL603S and an NT5 with me for comparison purposes. Seeing they had a AKG414-TLII in the store, I asked them to give me that one as well (I actually thought it was a ULS at the time), based on your recommendation.

Unfortunately I could only test in headphones, albeit good ones, and had no way to burn my tests to CD to take home and listen, however that didn't really prove necessary.

My MXL603S and NT5 had that fundamental harsh tone I hated through both pres (although I later experimented with EQ and a touch of compression on the Avalon and got the NT5 sounding reasonable). The MXL603S was better than the NT5 though.

The AKG451 was a bit of a revelation - the sales guy told me it was his preferred SDC for acoustic, and I could see why - beautiful balanced tone, no high end harshness. Tried it through both pres and was happy with it.

KM184 I didn't actually like all that much - to me it was only marginally better than the MXL603Sand NT5 - high end harshness again.

Then I tried the AKG414 - loved it. Just at 12th fret - no mucking around trying to find the optimum position, sounded good strumming, picking, fingerstyle. Good through the Apogee but really good through the Avalon.

I bought the AKG414-TLII and the AKG451 - I only realised it wasn't the ULS when he was putting it in the box - I read the manual on the way home and saw the "enhanced" response from 3K up and was a bit worried, as I'd only listened in headphones, that it may not be as good as I thought.

I've been mucking around with it over the last 24 hours as time allows, and I'm really impressed with it.

Thanks for the tip!

The store guys said basically that my pres were quite OK - could be better, but that the mics I was using was the problem, and my testing with the new mics confirms this, so I'm hanging onto the Mindprint Envoice and Presonus MP20 at this stage - would love that Avalon though...

So MXL603Ss and NT5s - well, might work for some, but not me with what I'm trying to do. I'll probably sell the NT5s and hang onto the MXLSs.

What you experienced here is what I call "HomeRec Bullshit". People find so many ways of defending inferior cheap mics with all kinds of bologny. The simple fact is that more expensive mics *sound* better. Way better. They also are much more versitile than the cheapies. The cheap mic salesmen also have a funny way of comparing the cheapies to Neumanns, Gefelles etc. Normally, the sensable people here would laugh at such a comparison. For some reason, the opposite seems to happen. It is easy to become deluded. So, before I get flamed to death, I would remind you to never forget your experience. "Buy cheap, buy twice" is very real.

 

[CanopuS]

Glad that you could get the gear Do post some clips when you've got the time

 

[Richard Monroe]

Yo Armistice! Congrats on getting good sound! I tend to think that this is one where Chessrock is basically right, in spite of the tongue in cheek. The last thing on Earth I want is a dense mix muddying up a well played acoustic guitar. I just finished a full blown studio album on 12 tracks, including the drum kit! Aside from that, I use a Taylor 710CE, which is already quite bright enough without a high midrange or treble boost, thank you.
I tend to use small diaphragms for the classical, which is darker.
It's not just the price of the mics. God knows a set of KM84's or Earthworks or Schoeps cost plenty, in fact, quite a bit more than a C414. The real issue is the *type* of mic used to record an acoustic guitar, the sound that the guitar is making in the first place, and how it sits in the mix.
It's not really a matter of right or wrong ways to do things. I just recognized Armistice was having a problem that I had, and gave him the solution that worked for me. If you have a well played, great acoustic, there is simply no need to mess with the sound to cut through the mix. If there is, my solution would be to simplify the mix. That's just my approach- no doubled tracks, no ambient mics. That doesn't mean there's something wrong with another approach. Dense mixes with 30+ tracks have become the norm in the current recording environment. I personally just don't like that sound.
For what I want to do with a steel string acoustic, I simply haven't found any mic or mics at any price that beat a C414 or an ifet7. I paid $550 for mine, and that isn't really a high priced solution. The good news, Armistice, is what the C414 does for an acoustic, it will also do for a mandolin, banjo, lap steel, dulcimer, harp, etc. It is also great, when padded, on toms, Djembe, Doumbek, Zarb, and many other sources. I'm glad it works for you.-Richie

 

[chessrock]

Re: Re: Richard Monroe.. you were right... (recording acoustic guitar)

What you experienced here is what I call "HomeRec Bullshit". People find so many ways of defending inferior cheap mics with all kinds of bologny. The simple fact is that more expensive mics *sound* better. Way better.

I think what you're saying might have some merit in a very general and broad sense. But remember, he did mention he was getting the same results using a Neumann km184. Which may be middle of the road for Neumann, but it's still not a cheap mic.

So while I do agree with you in some cases, this particular one is just a very simple and common situation where the source and the mic were a mismatch for what he was doing. Certain mics fall in to the category of just being "brighter," and price or perceived quality aside, they just aren't always a good match with the source . . . especially considering that different things just sound different.

 

[Richard Monroe]

Moreover, Acorec, lots of cheap mics do sound very good if they are in the right place at the right time. The album I just finished was recorded with the following mics:
B.L.U.E. Kiwi- $1800 GC (Guitar Center)
AKG C414B-ULS $600 GC
AKG D112 $180 GC
AKG C2000B $99 GC and $180 w/ shock mount, 8th street
AKG D320B $45 ebay used
Shure SM82 $20 flea market abused
Shure SM7B $280 GC
Shure SM57 $80 GC
Oktava MK319 $99 GC
Oktava MC012 $99 the pair, GC
Oktava ML-52 $175 GC
Studio Projects C-4 $379 Macmidimusic
Studio Projects C-3 $350 Macmidimusic
Studio Projects B-1 $80 Macmidimusic
Rode NTK $400 GC
Sennheiser e835 $40 GC

As you can see, I used a shit load of cheap mics on this commercial project, when I often could have selected more expensive mics. I used them because they were the right mics in the right place at the right time. The next upgrade, in about 2 months, will add Lawson L47MP Mark II, a pair of Josephson C42's, and an M1 LOMO head for the Oktava MC012. Does this mean I will get rid of the NTK, the MC012's, the C-4's, and the C-3? No, it does not. A great mic cabinet is a combination of expensive mics that work, and cheap mics that work. I will continue to recommend cheap mics to people who need cheap mics, and expensive mics to people who need expensive mics. The original poster here needed a mid-priced mic, but not the ones he was using. -Richie

 

[PinkStrat]

AKG C414 TL-II

First congratulations on the C414/TL-II...This mic is a real winner for a LOT of things. IMHO MUCH better sounding than the B-ULS version too. Did you know that the TL-II is one of the best electric bass mics going? Yep. It also kills as an electric guitar cabinet microphone as well. If I was going to get a C414 it will be the TL-II & not the B-ULS. That mic sounds bland to my ears.

 

[Armistice]

tdukex - indeed it was your suggestion, and thanks - it worked. It's difficult in Sydney (Orstraya) to find shops that have the facility to actually do this though - even though it's the biggest city in the country, with 5 million people, there are only a small handful of shops stocking this gear at all - I wandered into the shop to get an idea of what was around (a lot of the stuff you guys talk about just ain't available without a degree of pain in Australia) and the guy suggested it himself when I was raving about the NT5s and the probs I was having. Strangely enough they weren't interested in trading my NT5s either... damn...

ausrock - Sound Devices in the city. 414 has RRP of $2400, I got it for $1800 - 451 has RRP of $900, I got it for $700, so $2500 all up. (I hope some of you non-Australians are gasping at these prices - that's what this stuff costs over here - and why there's a certain allure to cheap stuff). - I confirmed the RRPs on a couple of other non-NSW sites. I hadn't bought anything from Sound Devices before - I'd made a couple of approaches over the years, but I'd found a reluctance to talk "street" price - not this time, I was very impressed - set it all up in a room, left me alone to play as long as I wanted - no hanging around offering advice etc. Came back to the room about an hour later. No pressure at all - and I'm happy with the "street" price - although I think there's an element of the strengthening Aussie dollar there - even against European currencies, where it's only gained marginally.

chessrock - yep, you're correct. I'm recording an album which is instrumental, some is busy mix stuff, and I'm managed to sit acoustic in there quite nicely with the MXLs, there's very little I'll need to redo - but now I'm getting onto the songs where there's just acoustics, or acoustic with minimal other stuff happening, and that's where the sound I was getting wasn't working for me. The guitar is quite bright - being a Maton, chances are you've never heard one, I think Jack Johnson's about the only international person of recent times using them, and Tommy Emmanuel, of course.

Richie - thanks again for the tip. Be spending less time here for a while and more actually recording now, I hope.

ausrock (2) - at some stage in the hopefully not too distant future, I'll get a copy of what I'm doing up to you - would appreciate a critical eye being run over it if you have the time (I will have to get a computer fast enough to make MP3s this year!).

One final caveat - I always assume first that it's something I'm doing wrong, rather than the gear - and while the advice generally given from this BBS proved not to apply to this particular combo of guitar, player, room & style, ce la vie, and I appreciated the efforts people made to help - spending all this time (frustrating as it was) mucking round with the other mics has taught me a lot about positioning, and I'm now in a much better position to use the new equipment better, so all for the best in the long run.

See yas.