Ribbon Question

flatfinger

flatfinger

Use every dam bit!
OK guys,
I've been using the search function on this and many other forums so please don't beat me up cause I know it might be a well worn subject! :D


How much room sound will come through the back side of a ribbon?( fig 8)

Can somthing like a SE reflexon filter or a baffle be put behind the mic or will that screw with the response??


Thanks for your opinions!!



:D
 
To bi or not to bi - that is the question?

flatfinger said:
"How much room sound will come through the back side of a ribbon?( fig 8)"
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Same as the front!*

flatfinger said:
"Can somthing like a SE reflexon filter or a baffle be put behind the mic or will that screw with the response?"
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It will screw up the response if placed too close - BUT - it seems as if you don't really want a figure-8 pick-up pattern. :(

*( . . . with the exception of queer mics such as the Apex 205, which claims "asymmetrical figure-8 pickup pattern" :eek: ).
 
PinkNoise said:
Same as the front!*
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I doubt that......I've never seen a fig 8 mic yet that has symmetrical response. If there is one that does, I cant afford it..... even my 414's are not symmetrical.....
 
flatfinger said:
OK guys,
I've been using the search function on this and many other forums so please don't beat me up cause I know it might be a well worn subject! :D


How much room sound will come through the back side of a ribbon?( fig 8)

Can somthing like a SE reflexon filter or a baffle be put behind the mic or will that screw with the response??


Thanks for your opinions!!



:D
Click to expand...
Don't you have a Cardioid mic you could use? Those were designed for folks who don't want room sound from the back of their mic. :D
 
What applications are you planning for the ribbon? I regularly use ribbons for drum overheads, guitar amps, and vocals. Unless you have an incredibly shitty sounding room, close miking with a ribbon shouldn't be a major problem. The sound source will usually be loud enough to minimize the effect of the room - it will still be picked-up, but to a much lesser degree than the main source. Ribbons were the primary microphones for many decades and countless recordings were made solely with ribbon mics.

Beyer does make some directional ribbons if that's really what you're looking for.
 
Beyer M160 , M260 and M500 are hypercardioid or cardioid. M130 is figure 8. Try an M160 if this is for instruments.
 
PinkNoise said:
Same as the front!*
Click to expand...


i think i disagree pretty strongly with this one.



It depends on how loud your source is. if you're mic'ing an amp up to about 12" away (or more even) the source volume is so loud that the room sound will be very small indeed.

if you're mic'ing something much quieter, then the ration of source:room will decrease, so you'll get much more room sound.
 
flatfinger said:
...How much room sound will come through the back side of a ribbon?( fig 8)

Can somthing like a SE reflexon filter or a baffle be put behind the mic or will that screw with the response??
:D
Click to expand...
Don't know if the SE thingy is broad enough for the job.. but there's definitely nothing wrong with setting up facing into a gobo-V (or whatever) to get the tone of the mic and simply want to deemphasize the back side. These are exactly the kind of options you'd pull in to control and get variations in the presentation.
 
flatfinger said:
How much room sound will come through the back side of a ribbon?( fig 8)

Can somthing like a SE reflexon filter or a baffle be put behind the mic or will that screw with the response??
Click to expand...

I would give up pretty much any piece of electronic gear before I would give up treating the sound around the mike. The Quick Sound Field created by ASC Tube Traps or Studio Traps around the mike works with either a figure 8 or omni pattern. Alternatively, If you turn the HF diffusing sides away from the mike, then you get a dead room sound with any pattern. You can dial in more room tone by spreading the traps further apart or less room tone by keeping them closer together.

Cheers,

Otto
 
Thanks guys, I'm a total ribbon newb!!
I guess I should just get a the cheap nady RSM 2 and start experimenting. Great Replies!! :D
 
flatfinger said:
Thanks guys, I'm a total ribbon newb!!
I guess I should just get a the cheap nady RSM 2 and start experimenting. Great Replies!! :D
Click to expand...
So far, I have gathered this...You want to buy a new $200 figure 8 ribbon mic. You also want to buy a $300 Reflexion Filter to make the figure 8 mic behave like a cardioid.

If you really wanted to experiment with different sounds and patterns, another option could be something like the $175 Apex460 tube mic. It has three different pick-up patterns to choose from and even a few "in-between" combinations of those patterns.

I don't mean to draw you away from the classic "ribbon" sound but hey, it's a decent alternative.

RawDepth
 
Bidirectional microphone misunderstandings

soundchaser59 said:
"I've never seen a fig 8 mic yet that has symmetrical response."
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My experience has been with STC (Coles) and RCA 44BX. I can assure you that they are symmetrical. Some ribbon mics have the magnets straddling the rear of the ribbon so that the sound can only get to the ribbon through the gaps between the magnets. I wouldn't expect these to be symmetrical, but then I wouldn't buy one either.

I've had considerable experience with AKG condensers (not 414, I have to say) and have found their capsules to vary widely in performance - even their own frequency response graphs show this. This is appalling, but I have to give them some marks for honesty! So, if your 414 is not symmetrical, you either have a faulty one, or perhaps an "average" one.
 
Bidirectional nonsense!

MessianicDreams said:
i think i disagree pretty strongly with this one.
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Had I expressed an opinion I'd say you're welcome to disagree. But I have stated a fact! (vis. that the sensitivity, response and polar pattern of a bidirectional mic are identical, front and back.)
MessianicDreams said:
It depends on how loud your source is. if you're mic'ing an amp up to about 12" away (or more even) the source volume is so loud that the room sound will be very small indeed.

if you're mic'ing something much quieter, then the ration of source:room will decrease, so you'll get much more room sound.
Click to expand...
You are quite correct in these three statements, but where you have lost me is: In what way is relevant to a bidirectional mic? If you have a loud sound source, you turn the preamp gain down and, sure, the room sound goes down with it BUT this applies to the rear pickup as well. Conversely, with a quiet source, you have to crank up the gain, and the perceived room sound comes up on both sides of the mic.
 
flatfinger said:
Thanks guys, I'm a total ribbon newb!!
I guess I should just get a the cheap nady RSM 2 and start experimenting.
Click to expand...

No....if you are going to "just get a the cheap nady RSM 2" then you should get the Apex 210 instead, from fullcompass.com on sale now for $116.

Apex 210 on sale

It may be manufactured at the same plant and come from the same country, and it is identical in every way except for the brand, but unlike the Nady it comes with a padded cordura bag that fits inside the included aluminum carry-on "flight" case. Sounds great, low noise, beats all the $99 dollar condensors right outa the water. It's distributed by Yorkville (makers of Traynor) and I would buy this ribbon every time before I would buy any other sub-$200 ribbon mic....

PinkNoise said:
My experience has been with STC (Coles) and RCA 44BX. I can assure you that they are symmetrical.
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And I can assure you that these fall into the "...if they are I cant afford them category..." which I mentioned in my post.
 
flatfinger, I actually use the sE Reflexion filter with figure 8 ribbons when recording guitar amps to block out the room. A word of advice: don't just go sticking it all the way into the filter. I actually prefer a figure 8 ribbon out about as far as it can get from the filter and it sounds more natural yet still blocks a ton of rear sounds.

War
 
PinkNoise said:
Had I expressed an opinion I'd say you're welcome to disagree. But I have stated a fact! (vis. that the sensitivity, response and polar pattern of a bidirectional mic are identical, front and back.)
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Actually, what you have have said is neither fact nor true. First, the topic in question here is a ribbon mic which has a figure eight pattern. This means it picks up sound intentionally from the two different directions. MANY ribbon mics do not treat these two directions the same. My Royere R121 for example intentionally is less sensitive to sound from the back side, has a little tilt towards higher frequencies form the back side and is out of phase from the front.

In addition to this, the sensitivity, response and polar pattern of NO bidirectional or figure 8 mics are the same from both the front and rear pick up lobes. If the reponse graph is detailed enough it will show the differences. If it does not, than I would say that they are incorrect.

In the end, please feel free to state your opinions here. Everyone here has that right. However, before jumping down someone elses throat for having an opinion of their own, make sure that you are not confronting them with "faulty facts".
 
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