Ribbon or LD Tube Condenser for Vocals

[Ricman]

I've recorded some vocals for a few projects, and while the results have been decent, I'm finding that the overall sound of the vocals has been on the solid but harsh side, somewhat hard sounding. I've used both Dynamics, like the SM-58 and some condensers like the AT4033. Neither really gives me a warm round sound full of rich tone that you just fall in love with when you hear it. They're clean, but there's no sweetness to them. It doesn't much matter about the vocalists either. A loud rock vocalist or a quiet ballad singer - both sound good, but just too clinically rigid sounding.

I'm thinking that a good ribbon mic would get me more in that direction, although a sales guy was pointing me toward one of the better Tube Condensers. The Royer 121 was mentioned for ribbon and one of the Rodes tube condensers, not sure of the model.

I can't afford the real high end stuff, I'd like to keep it at $1000 or under.

Any suggestions from those of you with the experience with these mics?

thanks alot!

 

[reshp1]

The "Sweetness" you're probably refering to probably comes from a tube mic and/or preamp. Although a ribbon could be very flattering on vocals, I would be very hesitant using a nice ribbon on vocals without a very good pop filter and a vocalist I trusted.
I really like my Groove Tubes GT66 for vocals. Marshall V69's seem to be well liked around here, as is the T3 from Studio Projects.

 

[AGCurry]

Well, I'm a big fan of [good] ribbon mics. The Royer is probably not the best ribbon for vocals, as it has a very accurate response without a lot of the character that people usually desire in a vocal mic.

Tube mics tend to color the sound quite a bit. Whether you LIKE the character is something you have to figure out for yourself. The 4033 is a pretty good mic, and if you can't get a decent sound with it, you might need a preamp.

 

[Milkfaj]

there are also some good deals on old vintage mics on ebay- if you want a unique and colored sound. that is if you trust ebay...

I got a reslo ribbon mic from the 60's for $300. I dont know if thats a good deal or not, but i am definately the only person i know with that mic.

I also agree with the statement about preamps, they can be just as important as a good mic.

You mentioned using an SM58 as a dynamic mic, which in my opinion is a good live mic, but not the best recording mic. For about $300-$400 you could get an SM7 which is supposed to be one of the best dynamic Mics around- for vocals as well as other applications.

 

[AGCurry]

I would be very hesitant using a nice ribbon on vocals without a very good pop filter and a vocalist I trusted.

I guess all those studios where thousands of vocal tracks were recorded with ribbon mics were just lucky, hunh?

 

[reshp1]

I guess all those studios where thousands of vocal tracks were recorded with ribbon mics were just lucky, hunh?

No, but I bet that they've blown out a few along the way. I don't have that luxury. After seeing the singer from my last band in front of a studio mic, I'd be hesitant to use ANY expensive mic on vocals

 

[xstatic]

I love ribbon mics, but I am not sure that I would rely on one for my primary vocal mic. I think you should look into at least one good solid LD condensor first, make sure your preamp is in order, and then add a ribbon mic. Fopr vocals, I would prefer the AEA over the Royer, but for guitars, the Royer for sure For vocals I find that in the right situation a ribbon can be absolutely spot on. However, 9 out of 10 times, the LD condensor (assuming it's a decent one) is the mic that I find seems to suit the situation better.

 

[Ricman]

Thanks a lot!!

Hey thanks for all the input! This is just what I’m looking for.

I have to agree with reshp1 about trusting the vocalist with the ribbon. With the rock band I work with I absolutely wouldn’t trust them. They’re young and careless. I would however trust myself, so if I were to get a ribbon mic then I’d probably only use it when recording my own stuff. And the GT66 was one of the mics mentioned along with the Rode something (the Rode was in the $700 range)

About the 4033, I actually have gotten pretty good results with it on my own voice, it’s really clear, but it still has more of a harder edge than I’d like. Other vocalists just compound that, perhaps because of their style or mic technique I guess.

I’ll look into the SM7.

AGCurry, xstatic and Milkfaj mention the preamp might need looking into. I don’t know a whole lot about the different preamps, at the risk of sounding oblivious – will a decent preamp make a dramatically noticeable difference? Right now I’m using an Allen & Heath console, and I actually like the preamps in it when mic-ing guitars or running Bass direct. I have a Presonus Blue Tube that I’ve not been crazy about, but I haven’t experimented a lot with it either.

I’m seriously looking into the MXL2001 royer mod. Would this put me in the ballpark for a decent LD Tube mic sound? There’s a link on the Mojave site I think that had a vocal done with it and it sounds pretty good. If this mod were to work well, then I could look into a good preamp with the rest of my budget, if you seem to think that will make a big difference.

Any suggestions for a good preamp that fits in the $600 range? I’m thinking a single channel preamp would give me more quality for the buck, since it may not be essential to have a dual.

Again, thanks for the help with all these questions! Looks like I came to the right place.

 

[SpiderM69]

Any suggestions for a good preamp that fits in the $600 range?

I have the FMRAudio RNP and like it a lot. If you can, get it with it's sister, the RNC:
http://www.fmraudio.com/RNP8380.htm

And yes, preamp's do make a big difference.


Of those of you that have used ribbons, ever tried the Nady or the PPA R-one?

 

[xstatic]

D&R makes an incredible sounding 2 channel preamp that will hold its own with the Avalons and the Hardys etc... It runs about $400ish for 2 preamps. No bells and whistles, just 2 solid preamps. Other than that, the RNP seems to get favorable reviews, as well as the GT Brick.

For mics, if you can get yourself into something like a Soundelux U195, you will see a huge improvement over all the Rode, Studio projects etc... mics. It would however require you to extend your budget since it runs about $1100.

There are those that would say that all you need is a good clean preamp, and that in general different preamps don't make a big difference. This is absolutely just not true. I certainly agree that starting with the right mic is the most important factor, but different preamps can really impart a lot of sonic differences concerning speed, harmonic distortion (which is actually a good thing to a certain extent), and the over all vibe and feel of a track. There is also a lot of truth to the fact that everything is limited to a certain degree by the weakest point in your signal chain. That weak point can be anything form the mic, to the pre, to the source signal, to the engineer, to the convertors, to the room, to the monitors. They all play hand in hand.

 

[chessparov]

Ric, what kind of parametric EQ are you using right now?

Makes a huge difference, especially with the dynamics, along with careful mic placement.

IMHO for $1000, a T3 and a EV RE20 merit serious consideration.
Both mics meet or beat many uber-expensive LDC's/ribbons, like for yours truly.

In fact, the less costly RE15 (or RE16) can also be comparable to the RE20 on many vocalists. TONS of classic hits have been cut with an EV BTW.
(this includes the 635a and 666)

Plus less experienced "studio" singers will have an easier life with an EV "RE" due to the variable-D feature.

Chris

 

[EVT]

Any suggestions for a good preamp that fits in the $600 range? I’m thinking a single channel preamp would give me more quality for the buck, since it may not be essential to have a dual.
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safesound p1
evt