ribbon and pres suggestions?

I

iivanov88

New member
I know there are probably many threads on this topic but I really couldn't find any. I don't really know anything about ribbon mics or preamps but I am just going after a "warm" sound. there are so many options for both and I just have no idea where to start.

I am thinking of spending up to 300 on the mic and maybe 500 for the pre. one channel would probably be enough. I guess it would need to be a tube one for a warmer sound?

also, I am a bit confused as to how pres go into an input. does it matter if there is already a pre on my interface (motu 8pre)? would it be acting as an "instrument" input then?
 
iivanov88 said:
I know there are probably many threads on this topic but I really couldn't find any. I don't really know anything about ribbon mics or preamps but I am just going after a "warm" sound. there are so many options for both and I just have no idea where to start.

I am thinking of spending up to 300 on the mic and maybe 500 for the pre. one channel would probably be enough. I guess it would need to be a tube one for a warmer sound?

also, I am a bit confused as to how pres go into an input. does it matter if there is already a pre on my interface (motu 8pre)? would it be acting as an "instrument" input then?
Click to expand...

Ribbon mics need pres with considerable gain; the more gain the better. A real good pre (for a ribbon) will have gain that is more than 60db. Can you use something less, sure but get a pre with the most gain you can.

As far as Ribbons go in your price range take a look/listen to the Cascade Fat Head w/Cinemag Transformer.
 
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A tube pre won't necessarily give you "warm" sound. Good tube preamps often tend to be more "hi-fi" in their sound. Many of the preamps that we associate with a "warm" sound (i.e., Neve) are actually solid state, but with big transformers. In many of the inexpensive tube preamps, the tube circuit is run below appropriate voltage (hence the terms "starved plate design" and "toob" circuit) and the tube merely functions to provide some distortion - which may be useful as an effect in some instances, but doesn't otherwise enhance the sound. This subject has been covered numerous times on this board. Do a bit of searching and you'll find the discussions along with some preamp opinions and recommendations.
 
pohaku said:
A tube pre won't necessarily give you "warm" sound. Good tube preamps often tend to be more "hi-fi" in their sound. Many of the preamps that we associate with a "warm" sound (i.e., Neve) are actually solid state, but with big transformers. In many of the inexpensive tube preamps, the tube circuit is run below appropriate voltage (hence the terms "starved plate design" and "toob" circuit) and the tube merely functions to provide some distortion - which may be useful as an effect in some instances, but doesn't otherwise enhance the sound. This subject has been covered numerous times on this board. Do a bit of searching and you'll find the discussions along with some preamp opinions and recommendations.
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Yeah, and you probably don't want a warm pre with a ribbon anyway. Even with a completely clean, flat pre, ribbons tend to result in a smoother, warmer sound than what you're used to. Warm the sound up too much and it's just going to sound muddy.
 
one man's "warm" is another man's "dull". What kind of stuff are you recording?

Do a little more research and if you can, do some listening tests. for $800 you should be able to buy a damn good mic/pre combo. You can audition stuff from online retailers like musiciansfriend and send it back/trade if you don't like it.

However....

I would rather have a better dynamic mic than one of those low cost ribbons. check out EV RE20s or Sennheiser MD421s, those are some damn nice dynamics that are close to your budget.

Or if you are recording acoustic instruments like guitars or lots of vocals, you should probably look for a real nice condenser. Again, you should be able to get something pretty decent with your budget.

If you already have pres on your interface, I'm skeptical that you would hear a dramatic improvement by simply sticking a tube pre in front of it. Motu 8pres are supposed to be decent enough, although I don't have alot of experience with them myself...

Do you think you would get better results spending the whole budget on a much better microphone? something not made in China perhaps??
 
I got a couple of cheap ribbons in the last group buy - they work well with any pre I've tried. I use them with my MOTU Traveler a lot, which is probably like yours. I got my MOTU modified by Black Lion Audio, which made the pres cleaner and nicer sounding, but the ribbons sounded pretty good even before that.

I think ribbons are great - maybe you could get just the mic first, and see how it sounds with your rig. If you get a cheapo and you have a soldering iron, you might want to change out the transformer. There are a lot of options, but one inexpensive one that sounds good with the MOTU is the Edcor RMX1 (twenty some bucks)
 
Oh, and if you want to get a cheap ribbon and you don't have a real deadline to get it, go read the group buy thread, sign up, and order one (or more) of those.

While I was waiting for the last group buy mics to come it, I bought a Nady RSM-4. Tonight I just gave up on it, put the stock transformer back in it, and put it up for a while. I'm pretty sure the reason I can't get happy with it is the ribbon thickness -- I think it's 6 microns. The ACM-2 that I got (very similar in many ways) has the 1.8 micron ribbon, and it sounds a lot less dull - lots more detail and better (but still smooth) highs.

Maybe if we get spare 1.8 microns ribbons in the next GB, I'll try and install one in the RSM-4.

Lot of ranting -- what I'm trying to say is that ribbon thickness makes a really audible difference - thinner is better. I imagine that if you get one of the somewhat higher end ribbons mentioned below, it'll come with a good ribbon.
 
wow, thanks guys. lots of information I did not know about.

Hi_Flyer, I have condenser and dynamic mics. I have an AKG 3000C, AKG D112 and an sm57. I am looking to also get the rode nt5's and two more 57's. I was also considering the ev re50 but it's like 600 bucks.

I want a ribbon so I can have a variety of sounds and I really like 60's sounding stuff, and I heard they used ribbons back then all the time.

also, the pre has nothing to do with the ribbon mic (I should have mentioned this). I just want one to use with any of my mics and possibly run guitar/bass through it. I keep hearing it's a crucial piece to have and can add a lot of richness to the sound.
 
pohaku said:
A tube pre won't necessarily give you "warm" sound. Good tube preamps often tend to be more "hi-fi" in their sound. Many of the preamps that we associate with a "warm" sound (i.e., Neve) are actually solid state, but with big transformers.
Click to expand...

Not so much the size of the transformer, but the core material and other components in the circuit and design. Some transformers are made in such a way to be transparent sounding. Some offer coloration that can be thought of as warm. In any case, the 'iron' can be the biggest difference. Tubes tend to offer a better sound if the signal is pushed hard because of even order harmonic distortion, but you're right in that a tube isn't necessarily 'warmer' than solid state. It depends on the conditions.

Another thing to consider is the amount of self noise that tubes generate. A ribbon mic needs a lot of gain where the floor noise would be raised in relation to the source, and a good clean solid state preamp would do a much better job exhibiting less overall noise. Ribbons tend to be darker and warmer sounding anyway. You want good clean gain.
 
This article might be helpful in seeing how folks use ribbon mikes, though these are experienced folks using the $1000 and up variety of ribbon mikes.

http://emusician.com/mics/emusic_ribbon_mic_summit/index.html

Still it may be helpful in seeing how the figure 8 pattern and the linearity and smoothness of the ribbon mike above its resonance frequency makes it the mike of choice in some applications and not in others.

The following review by Myles Boisen might also be helpful in getting a feel for the strengths and weaknesses of the low-end and high-end ribbon models.

http://emusician.com/mics/emusic_ribbon_revival/

Cheers,

Otto
 
iivanov88 said:
I know there are probably many threads on this topic but I really couldn't find any. I don't really know anything about ribbon mics or preamps but I am just going after a "warm" sound. there are so many options for both and I just have no idea where to start.

I am thinking of spending up to 300 on the mic and maybe 500 for the pre. one channel would probably be enough. I guess it would need to be a tube one for a warmer sound?

also, I am a bit confused as to how pres go into an input. does it matter if there is already a pre on my interface (motu 8pre)? would it be acting as an "instrument" input then?
Click to expand...

My advice: don't get a cheap ribbon mic. You will not be satisfied in the long run. If you want "warm" but don't want to spring for a Royer or AEA, try a Shure SM7, EV RE20, or one of the older Fostex RP series.

The FMR Audio RNP has plenty of gain and has 2 channels. I have clients who use them on remotes with RCA 77's and 44's with excellent results.

When using an outboard micpre, it's always best to bypass the one in your interface. Hopefully, you have a direct or line in that allows for that.
 
Hi_Flyer said:
I would rather have a better dynamic mic than one of those low cost ribbons. check out EV RE20s or Sennheiser MD421s, those are some damn nice dynamics that are close to your budget.
Click to expand...

I wouldn't. Not in a million years. With a little tweaking, you can make those cheap ribbons shimmer... like a condenser minus the harshness. I can't say the same about a moving coil dynamic. No matter what you do to those, they'll always have slow transient response and limited high end because of the simple fact that the sound has to move a lot of mass..
 
antichef said:
While I was waiting for the last group buy mics to come it, I bought a Nady RSM-4. Tonight I just gave up on it, put the stock transformer back in it, and put it up for a while. I'm pretty sure the reason I can't get happy with it is the ribbon thickness -- I think it's 6 microns. The ACM-2 that I got (very similar in many ways) has the 1.8 micron ribbon, and it sounds a lot less dull - lots more detail and better (but still smooth) highs.
Click to expand...

Agreed. The thinner ribbons do sound more detailed. That said, are you sure your 6 micron ribbon is tensioned enough? The 6 micron ribbon shouldn't be dull unless it is either not sufficiently tensioned or improperly corrugated or the transformer sucks. With a Lundahl, My RSM-2 isn't bright, but it isn't dull by any stretch of the imagination. I'd say they're just about right for recording brass, IMHO.
 
The Apex ribbon 210 or the dual element 215 will beat the Fathead easily, imo. The 215 is on sale at frontendaudio.com for $120, with hard case mount and cable. Heckuva deal!

You can get a FMR RNP 2 channel preamp for $450, work wonders with that ribbon.

If you have $300 for a mic, and you spend $120 onthe ribbon, you can spend the other $180 on a decent cardioid condensor, and then you can do some super sweet sounding mid-side recording, great for acoustic guitar.
 
RRuskin said:
My advice: don't get a cheap ribbon mic. You will not be satisfied in the long run. If you want "warm" but don't want to spring for a Royer or AEA, try a Shure SM7, EV RE20, or one of the older Fostex RP series.
Click to expand...

really? hmm I just thought I should have one ribbon just to have and compare and experiment with, so I can have a variety of different kinds of mics.

so even a $300 ribbon wouldn't stand up to these dynamic mics?
 
Just a thought...

I LOVE the Karma Audio K-6 run through the Seventh Circle Audio N-72....just love it. And it would seem to fit the description of the OP's desired sound as well.

No, the Karma isn't a boutique ribbon mic...but I have found that it is incredible on vocals (especially female vocals) and guitar cabinets...unbelievable sound from my Traynor YCV50 Blue to be honest.

Just my .02 for a solution that is in your price range new...the N-72 will run you a little less than $500 if you buy it already assembled and in a case...the K-6 is currently at $299 (been on sale for about a year I think)...I think you'd be pretty happy with this combination, and the N-72 will be a great Neve-ish pre for many other applications as well.

Jay
 
If someone is interested in a Fathead II, I will be selling mine shortly, in a few days probably. All reasonable offers considered.... I'd rather unload it here than post it on ebay.
 
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