reverb unit

[FALKEN]

I have a 3180 and love it. there aren't any bass and treble controls on mine though....but you can always do that on your mixer (in fact I recommend it). also cool is to run it through a gate to control the length of the decay. I think that you should go for the fostex...it will run you less than a hundred bucks so you don't have much to lose. and you can rarely go wrong with your gut instincts. I think the main benefit of the digi's is that you also get a flanger, pitch shifter, etc....

 

[Beck]

Wha???

The main benefit of the digis is they don't go (((BOING!))) with every snare hit.

Seriously though, you can create a real space with a good digital reverb using predelay, eq, diffusion, and decay. You can't do any of that with plates or springs. You can do it with a real room, if you have one, but then you only have that one room.

If you can only get one reverb, you're better off with a good digital unit -- more bang for the buck. A spring would be a good extra thing to have around if you already have a main unit. Digital reverb has been around a long time. I would still choose a digital device even if it just did reverb, like the old REV7 or REV5.

I guess we're beating a dead horse though, because you will either decide to get a good digi first or get it later after working with the spring for a while. Either way... no biggy.

 

[Dr ZEE]

The main benefit of the digis is they don't go (((BOING!))) with every snare hit.

Yeah! And it's also the biggest failure of the digis, because "BOING" - that's exactly what ONE may need.
Instead of a "deep-ghost real-heart beat BOING" they go "Grackle-Gargle"
*******

I guess we're beating a dead horse though, because you will either decide to get a good digi first or get it later after working with the spring for a while. ..

Yeah. The way I see it.. it's like being a gardener and trying to decide which one to get first the hoe or the shovel. The Old Man will tell you: "Gotta have both and the rake too!"

 

[cjacek]

In case anyone's interested, I've just done a side-by-side comparison of my Zoom RFX2000 digital reverb and Vesta Fire RV3 spring reverb.

Solo:

Mix:

My ears and my opinion:

The spring reverb (Vesta Fire RV3) tends to be smoother without any arifacts while the digi reverb (Zoom RFX2000) tends to sound a bit metallic with some artifacts. I find this kinda ironic. Although I prefer the spring (in those tests), one wouldn't neccessarily use that much reverb and in a tighter mix the difference could be much smaller, depending on which spring and digi reverb would be used. Thanks for uploading those JP!

 

[jpmorris]

My ears and my opinion:
The spring reverb (Vesta Fire RV3) tends to be smoother without any arifacts while the digi reverb (Zoom RFX2000) tends to sound a bit metallic with some artifacts. I find this kinda ironic. Although I prefer the spring (in those tests), one wouldn't neccessarily use that much reverb and in a tighter mix the difference could be much smaller, depending on which spring and digi reverb would be used. Thanks for uploading those JP!

The reverb was overdriven somewhat in both cases, since it was being used for dramatic effect rather than sensibly. The RV3 has a built-in limiter to protect the springs. When the RFX is overdriven it does get very grainy and odd-sounding. I put the spring on the back-end mixer because I wanted a dedicated reverb for it, and I do think it sounds a bit better.

Those clips were done all-digital, using the external reverb units to process the samples on one of the dialogue sections. In the 'album version' recorded on tape, I used large amounts of tape echo instead. But I posted the digital 'radio series' version because the objective was to compare reverb units.

 

[FALKEN]

sorry...i gotta jump back in here.

I guess we're beating a dead horse though, because you will either decide to get a good digi first or get it later after working with the spring for a while. Either way... no biggy.

beck, I have never read one of your posts that I didn't enjoy until now. I had no idea you were a reverb nazi. this is just ridiculous. I have a digi and a spring and I choose the spring over the digi every day of the week. its not that I think I am right and you are wrong, its that I am astonished that you would not even acknowledge this opinion in the slightest.

the kid says he doesn't like digital conversions and you are of the opinion that reverb "doesn't count". even though verb is generally kept down in the mix doens't mean that you can't hear the ones and zeroes as the verb decays down to minimal bit range.

hell, maybe you should look into one of those new plates, anti. you would be my hero.

 

[SteveMac]

sorry...

hell, maybe you should look into one of those new plates, anti. you would be my hero.

He'll probably find one for $100 in his local Craig list.

...or build one.

I get a little nervous about digital reverb myself. Because I have only the lower end ones. I've heard some completely obliterate cymbal crashes. But generally I guess I've had good luck with it.

 

[EDAN]

Seriously though, you can create a real space with a good digital reverb using predelay, eq, diffusion, and decay. You can't do any of that with plates or springs. You can do it with a real room, if you have one, but then you only have that one room.

There is a good argument for there being way too many options these days when it comes to effects (not just reverb) units. My Sony DPS-V55 has something like 30-60 parameters to fiddle with for each effect. It's gets mind numbing after a while and can easily get stuck endlessly tweaking things that aren't really going to make THAT much if any difference in the end. Like you (and I've read where some producers and gear/mag reviewers have said the same thing) said, in the old days with real plates you couldn't do any of that stuff. I rarely make/save my own patches as I find with the Sony and yes the Behringer Rev-2496 that the presets are almost always a great starting point and only need a few tweaks made to the most obvious parameters. I read where a lot of producers just stick mics all around a room and mix the room sound in later, nothing scientific to it for a lot of them. Sometimes we think too much and waste time thinking too much instead of making music, I know I'm more than guilty of this.

 

[SteveMac]

I read where a lot of producers just stick mics all around a room and mix the room sound in later, nothing scientific to it for a lot of them.

I like that idea. A friend of mine who used to intern in NYC said they used to do that to the bass all the time. In mixing they would run the bass track back out to the studio out an amp and mic the room acoustics.

 

[Beck]

sorry...i gotta jump back in here.

beck, I have never read one of your posts that I didn't enjoy until now. I had no idea you were a reverb nazi. this is just ridiculous. I have a digi and a spring and I choose the spring over the digi every day of the week. its not that I think I am right and you are wrong, its that I am astonished that you would not even acknowledge this opinion in the slightest.

Whoa there big guy!

A spring would be good if you wanted to get a certain vintage sound. Springs can sound great on guitar, but not so hot on vocals.

I don't know my friend, I would say that is acknowledging spring reverb at least "in the slightest." In fact it was I that first propossed in this thread that one might use both digital and springs for different applications.

the kid says he doesn't like digital conversions and you are of the opinion that reverb "doesn't count". even though verb is generally kept down in the mix doens't mean that you can't hear the ones and zeroes as the verb decays down to minimal bit range.

First of all, if you think you're going to tell me something I don't already know about digital reverb tails... please spare me. This quality varies greatly between different models. This is the value of knowing one from another (having lived long enough to own many; love some, and hate others).

Secondly, If someone is “afraid” of digital reverb because they’ve had bad experience with digital recording they don’t understand the technology. I’m not going to encourage the misconceptions just to “be nice.” That would be a disservice to those that are relatively new to recording, especially "The Kid."

My posts have a common theme -- me speaking from over a quarter century of recording experience, all for no other reward than a "Helper's high." When someone asks a question, I’m sharing that experience. Sometimes you may agree with it and sometimes you may not. I'm kinda relieved you disagree with me here. Having someone out there that thinks I'm right all the time gives me the willies… (even if I am)

Hey, I don't know what a reverb Nazi is. I wan't to make sure I understand it right. Are other people not reverb Nazis because they’re strongly advocating springs?

It seems to me we have people with different perspectives, and everyone is doing quite well explaining their positions without name-calling. Sometimes these threads come down to a poll -- how many like one thing and how many like the other. That's fine -- it won't change my mind, but then I'm not asking the question.

The power of good digital effects processor is as well understood in professional circles as the advantages of analog tape. It’s another of those things everyone knows until you log in to an amateur recording forum. The most common thing I see on forums like this is not just a lack of understanding about analog, but a general lack of understanding about recording… period!

Anyway, you guys have it made. You don’t even have to buy budget digital reverbs. Forget that crap! You can get a used Lexicon PCM70 for less than the price I paid for my first SPX90 new. Don’t even mess with the cheap crap. Cheap crap sounds like crap... no joke!

 

[Dr ZEE]

The most common thing I see on forums like this is not just a lack of understanding about analog, but a general lack of understanding about recording… period!

!

Are you saying that forums like these are flashing and shining with full spectrum of knowledge while radiating illuminating and inspiring deep understanding of art of "recording ...period"?
.. heh heh heh

My rear flashes brighter and radiates sharper. And I'm not even being arrogant - I'm being extremly polite saying so.

Forums like homerecording.com/bbs at least have a chance .... where producers can speek their mind without boundaries. And no joke here either.

...later

 

[Dr ZEE]

The power of good digital effects processor is as well understood in professional circles ....!

I am not arguing with you about digital reverb and effects...really, But if I was, I'd have to tell you that the fact that something supposedly is well understud in professional circles ain't gonna add up a spit to the power of you argument. As a matter of fact it will rather have exact opposite effect from the expected...

/respects

 

[Beck]

Are you saying that forums like these are flashing and shining with full spectrum of knowledge while radiating illuminating and inspiring deep understanding of art of "recording ...period"?
.. heh heh heh

My rear flashes brighter and radiates sharper. And I'm not even being arrogant - I'm being extremly polite saying so.

Forums like homerecording.com/bbs at least have a chance .... where producers can speek their mind without boundaries. And no joke here either.

...later

Hey Doc,

“Prosound” is just a name that someone gives themselves, like "Honest John." They’re no more or less pro than John is honest.

There’s a fine line between having no boundaries and reinventing the wheel. Inner city kids who are raised by other kids on the street also have no boundaries, but they can’t read or write either.

Forums in general are great for people that have a grasp of the fundamentals, but questionable in general as a vehicle to learn those basics as a newbie. For every informed answer you get 10 lines of uninformed nonsense, and you have to choose between them based on what? A majority?

Internet forums are like a classroom with no teacher -- the blind leading the blind. It’s ok if this isn’t a person’s only resource. The best thing to do is read the same standard works we did 20-30 years ago, -- Bruce Bartlett, John Woram, John Eargle, Brent Hurtig, Craig Anderton, etc.

People regularly ask questions on these anonymous forums and get answers from people that have learned everything they know about recording from these forums. The respondents may know something, or may know little if anything. It’s about 90% Ex Nihilo, but takes on a life of its own through repetition.

People like me patently (usually) wade through a lot of crap, ignore most of it and go off a lot less than you might think. The things I let go by without saying anything makes Rambo sewing his own arm up without anesthetic look like child’s play. There are a lot of people on homerecording.com with experience, but a lot more that have no idea, or even worse, think they know everything because they’ve heard it repeated on the web often enough.

By the way I'm not necessarily talking about this thread or my exchange with Falken. This should probably be another thread as I'm getting off the main subject.

Hey, how ‘bout an anonymous DIY brain surgery forum? Any takers?

People really need to ask themselves who’s on the other side when they consider responses to their inquiries.

 

[FALKEN]

you know...

it really comes down to musical style. for my stoner rock or zee's dub tracks, a spring is exactly what is called for. but for rnb, bluegrass, or pop music, it really wouldn't work at all. so, whatcha recording, anti?

 

[cjacek]

If I had good sounding rooms, I'd use that. If I had space, money to purchase or time and energy to build an EMT Plate, I would. For now, I guess, I'm stuck with my LXP-1, which is really not such a bad thing.

Btw: Building your own plate reverb

 

[Dr ZEE]

There’s a fine line between having no boundaries and reinventing the wheel. .

Yes there is.
But one has to actually recreate the wheel with his own hands and acquire few painful blisters during the process so to be able to distinguish between written true information about the wheel and arrogant lunacy signed by "Dr. Jhon Smith, PhD in wheel science, Yo-Yo Univercity of Neverland, Professor".
Open forums are open for everything - that's because they are open , but, at the same time, open forums do not claim righteousness (individuals on the open forums may (and often do) claim it, though, but not as effectively, as they may suspect ) . So, from an open forum You get information, but still keep some room for doubts and check things on your own or take it as truth on your own risk.
On the other hand, the "official" sources of information, by their definition, claim righteousness and do it very successfully, and thus are more likely to become misleading and more likely to become a true source of misinformation, which moves on maybe not faster, but much stronger and heavier legs, than any "anofficial rumor" does.
Yes, "ProSound" IS just a word, but people do take that word for its meaning and tend to apply the meaning of that word as a building compound hardner for the body assembled of the bits of information they receive from the source, carring that name-word.
And in addition, recording is a such strange mixture of strict engineering and wild art, so it is really nearly impossible to always see the "fine line" anywhere.

And, again, the main reason why I made my remarks in response to your mentionings of "professional circles" and "forums like THIS" was because I have real problems with "complex of superiority" in respect to non-professional independent self-recording artists, which often radiates from professionals (and individuals, pretending being professional) , and! ( I must add) not without help of sefl-recording artists themseves, because home recordists voluntary give way too much credibility to individuals who happen to collect a pay-check for pushing record-button. (not to say that there's something morally wrong with collecting check for pushing record-button )

/respects

 

[Beck]

And, again, the main reason why I made my remarks in response to your mentionings of "professional circles" and "forums like THIS" was because I have real problems with "complex of superiority" in respect to non-professional independent self-recording artists, which often radiates from professionals (and individuals, pretending being professional) , and! ( I must add) not without help of sefl-recording artists themseves, because home recordists voluntary give way too much credibility to individuals who happen to collect a pay-check for pushing record-button. (not to say that there's something morally wrong with collecting check for pushing record-button )

/respects

Ok man, but if you don't know where I stand on these pro/semi-pro issues by now there's not much more to say. It could be semantics, I suppose -- how we're defining pro. The last thing I think of is the prosound web or people posing as pros in cyberland.

What the hell is cyberland to me anyway? I was recording for well over a decade before Al Gore even invented it; and it was another ten years after that I even bothered to participate in BBSs and such. All of these forums are rife with misinformation about the very fundamentals. This is the down side of an open anonymous form. There are plenty of good things as well.

From an engineering perspective recording is like driving a car. There are a few things people better know before they back that thing out of the driveway or they will get nowhere. I’ll never get used to all the silliness I see disseminated out here. You’ll just have to excuse my frequent astonishment.

Keeping with the car analogy, the art aspect applies more in how you decorate your car… that’s up to the individual and there’s really no wrong answer.

~Tim

 

[Dr ZEE]

Ok man, but if you don't know where I stand on these pro/semi-pro issues by now there's not much more to say.

I guess I can guess where you stand overall... but even if I do gess 'right' based on what you've been saying over period of time, still, how do I know .. and do I really need to know, or do you really need to know that I know ... or anybody else about anybody else's standings around here . We are in 'cyberspace' .. you see, so I just respond to what I read... one thing at the time. I can try to interpret what I read on b-board with a twist for myself, I suppose , maybe I should
Also, I am not trying to argue here, really, nor I am trying to prove something... I simply express what gets on my mind in reaction to what I read on b-board. Nothing really more than that...

It could be semantics, I suppose -- how we're defining pro.

Well, that may be so. But, don't you know how we define it?
We define it as "Good, great, right, correct, the way to go". So any time you make a reference to "professionalism" or to "the way professionals do" to support your argument in a discussion of recording issues it always simply mean: "My point is good, great, right, correct, and it's the way to go". And why it is so? - because it is the "professional way", meaning, that it is the way which is good, great, right, correct and it is the way to go.
See where I'm going with this.
Another words, let's say, if your point is that digital reverb is the way to go in such and such situation - just say it and say why it is so. But, If you say: "It is so, because "it is understud in professional circles" , then it is the same as to say "I'm right, because people in the circles where thigs are done right understud it well" ...heh heh heh, and I'm sorry, but this all just makes me smile , especially when I visualize in my mind some of the dudes from those very "circles" ...

anyway... there's no argument here on my part, really. Just ranting. kinda' picking on water....

And, again, we are not talking here about things like where to stick this or that jack or which button is play. Those ARE like driving rules or things like which pedal is break - which pedal is not. If you look into the whole recording process you'll see that there are really very few undeniable "rules" there. And if you know those rules, then there's not much really there to be oh so proud of. Or you can be very proud of knowing which pedal is the break. Some guys do.

and, again, speaking of "professionalism". Recording music is not the same type of activity as driving 18-wheeler. Mixing sounds is not the same type of activity as mixing cement.
also, the fact that a guy carries C++--licence () in his pocket does not make him less dangerous on the road. And I don't see anything artsy about driving a vehicle.

alright, I gotta shut up...or something...
/respects
*********
...
ooops:

 

[Dr ZEE]

Keeping with the car analogy, the art aspect applies more in how you decorate your car… that’s up to the individual and there’s really no wrong answer.

~Tim

Yeah. I know. I know also, that the bigger a professional studio is - the more decorations it is made of. And I mean it both ways: literally and figuratively.

 

[Beck]

If you look into the whole recording process you'll see that there are really very few undeniable "rules" there. And if you know those rules, then there's not much really there to be oh so proud of.

I couldn't disagree more. By the time a musician/composer/producer/engineer is well-versed in the fundamentals of acoustics, electronics, impedance, gain-staging, mic placement, equipment knowledge, mastered an instrument or two, etc, he has spent as much time and effort as a med student has with anatomy, physiology, pathology, treatment options – equipment & drug selection, etc. Then on top of that there are the things you can’t learn but with years of doing.

Knowing how to push PLAY, REC, etc or what jack to plug a cable into is fine for assistants, but they are there to perform a simple task under direction.

I see a huge disparity in what home recordists are exposed to in the isolation of these Internet forums compared to what is understood among professionals; and by professionals I don’t mean just anyone who does it for a living, but simply people that know what they’re doing. Certificates and plaques on the wall mean nothing in and of themselves.

For me to say to do something a certain way just because Tim Beck does it … now that would be arrogant and condescending. That’s why I prefer to open a window and let some light in rather than be that light myself.

You don’t see me defending analog based upon my greatness either. I regularly point people to what’s going on in the real world rather than try to alter this pretend world with just another opinion. You’ve seen it yourself – how shocked (and angered) some people are to learn how common analog tape is in those same “professional circles” of which I speak.

also, the fact that a guy carries C++--license () in his pocket does not make him less dangerous on the road.

I'm not worried about the guy with his CDL… I’m worried about the guy telling other people how to drive, yet has never even seen the inside of a truck. That’s the difference between the professionalism and amateurism I’m talking about.