reverb and compression techniques in a digital/analog hybrid setup

[LemonTree]

Here's a quick rundown of what I'm using....

Cubase SX
24 channels of M-Audio Delta convertors
Soundtracs Topaz Project 8 Mixer
Waves Diamond bundle
A couple of entry level outboard racks of reverb & compression


My Question....

I'll usualy use my two outboard reverb units (lexicon MPX100 & Alesis microverb3) set up on an aux send each, like 2 master effects and use one for drums and one for vocals. So when it comes to reverb for guitars I'm stuck with using plugins if I want a different verb and bussing that out along with the guitars to two channels on the desk and mixing in the software to get the right amount or blend if you like.

Here's the problem......

If I add outboard compression to tracks with reverb plugs I get all sorts of unexpected things happening but when I add outboard reverb to tracks with compression plugins I seem to get much better results...at least more predictable results.

Is there a right and wrong way of doing this? Or is it just a drawback of my hybrid setup? Any suggestions or tips? It's just something I've noticed recently...I think my ears are growing

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

If I add outboard compression to tracks with reverb plugs I get all sorts of unexpected things happening but when I add outboard reverb to tracks with compression plugins I seem to get much better results...at least more predictable results.

That's fairly typical.

Think about what's happening: when you add reverb first, you're adding low- to mid-level signal that has frequency convolutions all over the place that are properties of the "room" and do not belong to the instrument istelf. Compress that, and you stand a good chance of accentuating all sorts of stuff that are components of the reverb and not components of the source signal. Not to mention a compression of the reverb signal will tend to contrort and lengthen the reverb's otherwise natural decay.

You can try setting threshold on the compressor above the level of the first or second impulse of the reverb sound, but that usually is little more than a comprimise setting, at best.

This is just one of the reasons why General Rule #7 is to, when possible, place reverb last in the signal chain. Besides avoiding situations like the above, the general idea is to use compression, EQ, etc. to modify the instrument or track sound until you get the sound you want. Then, when you have that sound, then you can "place it in a room" by adding the verb to it.

This all, of course assumes you are not looking for some artifical special effect sound. Otherwise, all rules go out the window .

G.

 

[Yareek]

As an aside to Glen's statement, I use reverb both before and after compression. Really the only time I use it before is to fatten up a snare drum.

I have nothing but plugs, but I find that adding a short (tempo varies with tempo/style of the song) reverb and messing with the high- and low-pass frequencies of the reverb plug, then compressing it, thickens up the snare and gives me a nice balance of that 80's/early 90's "big snare" sound while keeping it fairly natural.

I usually do stereo room reverb on the entire kit to add just a bit of ambience to the sound.

 

[LemonTree]

That's fairly typical.

Think about what's happening: when you add reverb first, you're adding low- to mid-level signal that has frequency convolutions all over the place that are properties of the "room" and do not belong to the instrument istelf. Compress that, and you stand a good chance of accentuating all sorts of stuff that are components of the reverb and not components of the source signal. Not to mention a compression of the reverb signal will tend to contrort and lengthen the reverb's otherwise natural decay.

You can try setting threshold on the compressor above the level of the first or second impulse of the reverb sound, but that usually is little more than a comprimise setting, at best.

This is just one of the reasons why General Rule #7 is to, when possible, place reverb last in the signal chain. Besides avoiding situations like the above, the general idea is to use compression, EQ, etc. to modify the instrument or track sound until you get the sound you want. Then, when you have that sound, then you can "place it in a room" by adding the verb to it.

This all, of course assumes you are not looking for some artifical special effect sound. Otherwise, all rules go out the window .

G.

Thanks for that Glen,l I think I had moist of what was happening grasped already but it's good to be reasured of what's actually happening. My next move was gonna be a DSP card like the UAD-1 or the TC-Powercore. I think now I'll be more inclined to go for the UAD-1 which seems to be the superior card fro compression and go with better outboard reverb in the future.......no point investing in the good powercore verbs if outboard compression is gonna mangle them.

One question, one answer and a lesson learned......gotta love it here. Thanks again