Reverb amounts for the mix

[Eaglion]

As i am new here, i am not sure it this is the place to ask this, please apologize me if not.


My home recording-practice studio is rather smal and lacks of acoustic. I have developed a habit to exagerate the reverbs to overcome this dullness of the sound. As i record digitally i forget to lower the reverbs most of the time.

I play guitars most of the times.

Here is my question:

I remember reading somewhere (most probably in a midi forum) that while editting drum once should be carefull not to put so much (different sets) drum beats which can not be played by a drummer at the same time. The reason was as the listenners are familiar to listen to bands with one drummer excessive beats would sound unnatural.

If I apply this to reverb amounts>
All the instrument should have the same reverb depths and ratios to create a feeling that they are playing in the same environment. ie: one instrument has church reverb, and the other has bath then the listener will not get an environment feel (or other different) reverb depths and ratios.

Do you think this approch is correct?

 

[mbuster]

Reverb is something that has to be applied to taste on individual tracks. If you had the exact same reverb on the Kick drum and bass guitar as you had on the lead vocal, the low end of your mix would get washed out and muddy pretty darn quick. Of course, there are exceptions to just about any mixing "rule" you can come up with. Basically, just use your ears. That'll teach you what does and doesn't work, and why.

 

[TexRoadkill]

If you are trying to create a realistic space then using only one type of reverb is usually a good choice.

 

[mixmkr]

If you are trying to create a realistic space then using only one type of reverb is usually a good choice.

I disagree. I will agree that reverbs with loooong tails in a mix with reverbs with much shorter tails will most likely not give "realistic" spaces, but using room sound verbs, and different reverbs on drums as compared to guitars(as an example), but similar can yield what I call realistic spaces....or get you "much closer" than if you just used the same reverb (but maybe in different amounts) on all the instruments. Something as simple as EQ'ing a reverb return will help an instrument sound much better without being so muddy. But, you may want to treat it differently on a different style instrument. Nothing wrong with putting reverb on basses and kick drums (but generally not done), but I sure wouldn't treat the reverb return from those instruments as I would with instruments in a higher frequency register...say an acoustic guitar. I would try to make it sound the same (if that were the goal), but I would pretty much bet the returns would be treated differently, if not just using a different reverb setting instead.

If you want everything to sound like it's in a cathedral (as another example), then maybe yes, a reverb on the whole mix, might get you to that end point.

But then, like I've said before, I'd wash my clothes in reverb if I could

 

[TexRoadkill]

I didn't say use the reverb over the entire mix. I was saying use one type of reverb. I assumed he would be using aux sends and all the other typical mixing practices.

I usually end up using 2 or 3 reverb types but I'm not always going for realism.

 

[Middleman]

If you think of 3 or 4 instruments in a room, they are all going to have different responses to walls based on distance and the type of surfaces present in the room. I have found that using at least 3-4 different reverbs with varying predelay and very short delay times creates a true room feel. I try to use different reverb plugs or a combination of hardware reverbs to get some interesting spaces.

Using a single reverb plug, regardless of the number of instances, does not seem to work as well. In this case you would need some EQ front or backside to create tonally different sounds.

When I give each instrument its own sound and ambiance it comes close to the real thing. I spent a few weeks working on a small jazz club type sound on drums, acoustic bass, keys and sax. It came out pretty good with a nice small room feel. The drums and the acoustic bass really define the size of the space. Quick sax notes too, they require some type of wall bounce which gives the listener the room size impression.

 

[mixmkr]

middleman....you expressed better what I was trying to say.

tex..no..I wasn't suggesting that you said reverb the mix...but don't use just one send either for one verb. Use several of the same species....like middleman states.

 

[Middleman]

Yeah I thought that's where you were headed.

 

[Eaglion]

thanks

First of all i am a rookie newbie (which means i even don't deserve to be a newbie) when it comes to mixing and mastering. So i am in no place to argue with anyone. Though i still have some questions to you for sake of brain storming.

It is said that different reverb ratios give more realistic room effect.

Lets say that room is 10x10 meters and two guitarists (or their cabins) stay just infront of opposite walls, and i stand at the corner of one room. So sound of guitar closer to me 10 m. then bounce back and again bounces back to me total of 20 m. the other guitar travels 10 x sqroot 2 m to be heard first time and 2 x10 x sqroot 2 m to be heard. As sound travels 360 m/sec.
Reverb delays will be 0.0555 sec for G1 and 0,0785 sec for G2. a 0.0230 sec difference of 41%. Thats Ok.

Now assume that we are in a concer hall. I stand at the corner raw at the farest back. Hall is 50 m width and 100 m lenght and two guitars stay 10 meters apart.

The reverb delay as i hear G1 is 0.56 G2 0.62 and %11 difference.


So bigger the area smaller the difference. So isn't it safer to set same or closer reverb delay times. I know the duriation of reverb can change depending on instruments base frequency (which most revebs handle this as default). Predelay differences can be negligibly small for this example like 0.03 sec.

And remeber that in both examples i was standing in the corners to create the greatest difference. If i was standing at a perfect center spot there will be no difference at all.

So why do you think different reverb ratios sounds more realistic?

 

[Middleman]

You are assuming a linear and ubobstructed path for the sound, this is rarely the case in any room. Hard surfaces will reflect faster than soft surfaces. As well, the sound is actually bouncing all over the place and you are getting sound information from sound sources in a 360 degree pattern. This is what you are trying to accomplish with reverbs.

 

[Eaglion]

Middleman, you're right on that in definition. When you think of movement of single sound, i will hear reverbation1, reverbation 2..... reverbation infinite. The values i have given in my example are reverbation 1 of both guitars which are the shortest path to be travel and the delay/difference ratio between G1 and G2 is in its greatest value. If you want to calculate reverbation infinete then this ratio will be drop to almost 0% in theory.

So what you explained should be set by depth and regeration parameters of reverb for single sound to create that space effect. Assume that G2 is muted and only g1 is played. The sound and its reverbations i hear, will be (again almost) the same as when G1 is muted and G2 is played. When played togather the only difference i can notice is the delay between them. IMHO that delay is small enough to be neglected, though if you want to be so accurate then i can set predelay times with according to this difference. And in sake of accuracy, sound reverbation (especially its bass) will attanuate more when travel longer and bounce more. Then i can put a slightly cut bass tone in one of them.

What do you think i am missing this time?

 

[Eaglion]

I have already found one thing i missed. Phase shift!

If two are supposed to play exactly same notes, in perfect sync with same gear then this distance between them will create a constant phase shift causing light and dark nodes. If they play different things there will still be a phase shift but not constant. Setting different predelays can simulate this.

The question is; "Is it favorable to have dark nodes in a record?" Besides, knowing that you can avoid them.

 

[Middleman]

I think you are overthnking the issue. If you really want to understand reverb and when and how to use it there are two sources.

Live musicians in a variety of rooms
Albums

If it sounds good to you it is good. If you want to sound like the pros then listen to the tracks on your various albums.

There are so many different reverbs with different controls it is hard to make generalizations about reverb. They all have different sounds; some have pre delay controls which are used to separate the original from the delayed sound. They all differ in their approach to halls, ambient, club and plates.

So, even though you work out an understanding of real world sound and how it bounces given a variety of room sizes and surfaces, as well as distances from the listener, that is just theory and unless you have a very high end device, the theory may not match to the design and sound of a given reverb.

Now, they should match but different programmers take different approaches both in hardware chips and software designs. So, although I think an understanding of how sound works is important, the results of different reverbs don't always match up and it becomes an exercise in what sounds right regardless of what the knobs are indicating.

The point of this conversation is that you can simulate various rooms by placing different sounding reverbs with different predelay settings, as well as other parameters, on different instruments and the combination can be used to create real sounding spaces. The most basic parameter, if your reverb has one, is a predelay setting. Another approach is to put a delay prior to the reverb to hold off on the reverberation a few milliseconds. EQing comes into the mix too.

Overall though you just have to learn to listen critically and remember when you like a sound to mentally catalogue it. If you come across a killer room sound, write down all the settings and start building your own methods.

Finally, if you read about how some of the pro engineers work, many will have 10 or more reverb units on their tracks with very short response times, as well some long ones, and this becomes their trade sound or just the starting place for their approach to the mix.

 

[Eaglion]

Thanks Middleman.

Your reply reminded me my own replies in Our multifx forums. I am tricked into the same mistake with them :=).

If i am not mistaken again, wahat you are trying to say is although the gear challenges to create a real effect, only one can't totally succeed it. Additional reverbs are needed to compansate this failure. Do what ever sound correct to your ears.

Right?


Thanks again,
Taylan

 

[Middleman]

That's about the best method I have found, yes.

 

[mixsit]

...If i am not mistaken again, wahat you are trying to say is although the gear challenges to create a real effect, only one can't totally succeed it. Additional reverbs are needed to compansate this failure. Do what ever sound correct to your ears.

Right?
Thanks again,
Taylan

As I followed this thread, I was tempted to counter the idea that verbs should be of the same 'type' or style, although for simpler or more natural pieces and if 'realism' is the goal it's certainly very valid.
But since we are generally using trickery to get to 'realism' anything goes.
Look at most orchestral recordings. Combinations of lovely spacious back micing and close mic for 'detail', 'presence' and intimacy. But as a listener, my ears (or head) is telling me; Which is it? Am I back in the seats or setting in on of the player's laps?
We like it both ways.
Short verbs with close reflections set the 'stage/room' depths, big huge spaces with pre-dealy hiding in the back on some of the instruments does the bigger-than-life thing we want too.
Can I have my cake now?

 

[Eaglion]

mixsit,
We have chocolate and grape cakes in the kitchen. Go and fetch yours and thanks for the help.

 

[mixsit]

Grape cake sounds good. I don't think I've done one.

I have already found one thing i missed. Phase shift!

If two are supposed to play exactly same notes, in perfect sync with same gear then this distance between them will create a constant phase shift causing light and dark nodes. If they play different things there will still be a phase shift but not constant. Setting different predelays can simulate this.

The question is; "Is it favorable to have dark nodes in a record?" Besides, knowing that you can avoid them.

Taylan, are you referring to bright and dark tones from comb filtering? I didn't get what you meant by the nodes.

On dialing in on timing and such...Middleman said:
"... the results of different reverbs don't always match up and it becomes an exercise in what sounds right regardless of what the knobs are indicating. "

As soon as you introduce other patch styles or brands, the verb's rhythms change. Envelope shapes, built-in pre-delays that start with a setting of '0', sometimes strong late groups of reflections that set their own tempo...


Several years ago I read about actually delaying the source tracks to put them stage-back. Like, the kit -10 ms behind the front-line?
I played with it a few times back when but didn't see any 'depth' effect out of it.
Anyone heard or use that one?

Thanks too.
Wayne

 

[Eaglion]

Mixsit,

It was a physics term. Wave interference. When two waves' maximum points (peak) intersects the over all sound will be enhanced likewise when minimum of one and maximum of the other intersects they kill each others. This happens usually in 180 degree phase shift. It still happens in other degrees of shiftings but not as apperent as 180.

I also hear of this 10ms shifting to create wider sound, not sure 1f it was 10ms though. It is recomended for midi tracks. Though that 10ms may not be enough for wave tracks. As far as i know, many prefer to record a few more takes of the track and mix them instead. Even if those tracks played by same player it is almost impossible to have totally identical tracks. So there will be an unconstant delayings between them and will sound more lively. After bouncing them all to one track you can still put that 10ms delay by making a copy of that bounced track. Though it can be very noisy.

As i am no way and expert as i meantioned before, this is what i had read and doing for midi tracks.

 

[mixsit]

In this case the delay was to shift a track back in time slightly to give the effect of that instrument comming from farther back in the sound-stage. Not for doubling or thicking.


"It was a physics term. Wave interference. When two waves' maximum points (peak) intersects the over all sound will be enhanced likewise when minimum of one and maximum of the other intersects they kill each others. This happens usually in 180 degree phase shift. It still happens in other degrees of shiftings but not as apperent as 180."

I figured this is where you were going with it, but I didn't understand what a 'dark node' was.
Wayne