Resonance...kill...resonance..kill

M

marcccc

New member
Hi
My band has recording four tracks.
All is well, except for some things.
We need less resonance on the toms, while still having volume.
I'm using a 76 Ludwig Classic in white cortex. I have the little knobs for muting...will that help? What can I do to still have enough volume, yet less resonance. I'm also using evans g2 coated for the toms...evans resonant for resonant. We are recording through a br-8. The drums have 6 mics (2 for crashes, up top...one for snare/hats...one for two toms...one for ride/floortom...one for bass) Also...does anyone know how to kill bassiness on a guitar? On some notes, theres an extreme amount of bassiness. It sucks. Someone please help. The bassiness was especially bad on muted notes.
Thanks for anything.
-Marc
 
Tom resonance:
Try small "wads" of folded kleenex taped to the tom heads for use as dampers....

Guitar tone:
How are you recording the guitar? Via mics? If so, experiment with mic placement to get the sound you want. You should be liking the sound you're getting out of the amp period. Keep in mind that live-playing amp settings may not work for recording... bottom line, get the amp sounding the way you want, then place the right mic in the right position to capture it....

Bruce
 
I agree that small squares of tissue (like one square of toilet paper folded over until it's 1"x1") taped to the heads (use masking tape not duct tape) can take out tom ring. Consider detuning the resonant heads so that there is less "high end" resonance.
 
A lot of novice guitarists pump huge amounts of bass, treble and effects into their tones because when they are playing alone they try to get the guitar tone to sound huge and basically fill the entire audible spectrum.
As you are discovering this doesn't work in the context of a mix because you need to leave room for the other instuments. Tell the guitarist to turn down the bass. like Bruce said get the amp to sound good, but keep the above in mind while you are deciding what 'good' sounds like.

If the mic is right up against the grille you can try moving it back a couple inches, that might help too.
 
Try "zero" rings on the drums. Basically a ring like a donut that fits on top of the skin, about an inch wide, at the outer perimeter. They totally eat up all the resonance and leave you with a nice clean tone. One brand I use is Remo and it's like magic.
 
Hi Marc,


First, if I were you-I would take those internal mounts OUT of the drums, just put them someplace to save them, because in this day and age, that thing is known as a "noise maker"...it's just something to rattle....I mean, do they even put them on drums anymore? I don't think so, I know the last two snares I've bought didn't have them in them....but those were Free-floating drums.

Here are my questions to you:

1. What make/model Mic's do you have?

2. What type of drumsound are you after?
(because that resonance you're trying to get rid of is what will "give your kit life" on the recordings.)

3. How do you tune the kit?

4. Are the drums and other instruments in the same room/ recording at the same time?

I'm not familiar with the BR-8, how many tracks can you record at once?

Here is what I am currently doing:

I tune my kit with the bottom heads essentially twice as much tension as the top heads (I tune the kicks and snares this way).
For the snare I tune the top head and bottom head generally around the same tension...it's relatively tight.

I mic each Kick and each tom. No overheads at all.

Toms:
Put the mic about 4" to 6" above the Rim, and aim it toward the middle of the drum.
Then, I simply roll out around 800Hz to 1 Khz.

Kick: I mic inside the drum normally with an AKG D112 that is mounted inside, but I pulled the mic's out, and I'm learning to mic from outside the drum (I use a full front head on the kicks...but I have made a "grill" area, where I punched 1/4" Holes in the heads and that seems to be working well...I wantedto experiment, and figured if I was going to sacrifice $100 worth of drumheads (two 28:" kick heads are expensive man!) by putting a 4" to 6" hole in them, then I was going to try my "attack vent".... idea blatantly stolen from Evans Attack grill.... except I put my grill off center.

Tim
 
Tim

Your post is interesting, but its contradictory. Help me understand it, since I'm interested in trying your method. What drums do you tune the bottom head twice as tight as the top? You said you did it to the kick and snare, but then you said that you used equal tension for snare...

I have a Tama Rockstar Custom. I currently use all Aquarian heads. The kick sounds great. Every drummer that has played my kit is thoroughly impressed by its sound, but I still want a little more from it. The aquarian heads have a dampening ring within the head, which gives a very "thuddy" sound. How can I get a brighter, yet full sound? What heads do you recommed for my kit? I still haven't changed the factory bottom heads on the toms or snare... is that a huge problem??

THANKS!!!
 
Tapehead is right about the Remo rings. They are cheap and will do exactly what you want. I've tried them and they make the toms sound nice in the room when you're playing but when miked, well... it's kills the any "life" in the toms. The Remo rings are off my toms now but they are still on the snare. If you like a fat snare sound (like a typical '70s recording) they are perfect. If you like the Red Hot Chile Peppers ringy snare forget them.
 
Re: Tim

moelar2 said:
Your post is interesting, but its contradictory. Help me understand it, since I'm interested in trying your method. What drums do you tune the bottom head twice as tight as the top? You said you did it to the kick and snare, but then you said that you used equal tension for snare...

I have a Tama Rockstar Custom. I currently use all Aquarian heads. The kick sounds great. Every drummer that has played my kit is thoroughly impressed by its sound, but I still want a little more from it. The aquarian heads have a dampening ring within the head, which gives a very "thuddy" sound. How can I get a brighter, yet full sound? What heads do you recommed for my kit? I still haven't changed the factory bottom heads on the toms or snare... is that a huge problem??

THANKS!!!
Click to expand...


Excuse me! Hahaha

I tune the entire kit that way, but generally I find I wind up cranking the snare heads about the sam tension.

Take your toms, and put them upside down on a carpeted floor.
Tune them to the pitches that you want, but an octave higher.
Then turn them over, and do the same thing with the top heads.

This type of tuning will give you sort of a "kettle drum/tympani" type of tom sound.
If you want to hear an example of this type of tuning listen to the song "Sign Of The Cross" by Iron Maiden.

I tune the Kick just like it's a tom-essentially, the next note down from my lowest floor tom.

I tune the snare to the same note as the Kick drum, it's just higher in pitch.

When you say you want a "brighter" sound on the kick drum. do you want more "click" (mallet attack)?

I use the Axis "Sonic Hammers" and Remo Kevlar pads, and I have a ton of attack from that.

I personally have never used aquarian heads.
I like to use the same kind of heads for the entire kit; because I use a 20" floor tom-I can only get heads from Remo or Evans that will fit..Aquarian only makes 20" Kick heads....And I'm not even sure if they make 28" Bass heads.
I use Remo Pinstripes on the tops of the toms, and Clear Ambassadors on the bottoms, but I'm thinking about going with Diplomats on the bottoms.

I hope that helps some.

Tim
 
TIM

You are excused my friend. :)

Thanks for your input - I've heard that suggestion (about pinstripes on top and ambassors on bottom) before, so I guess it must be pretty good sounding combo.

As far as the kick sound, I do want a more "clicky" sound, but not at the expense of depth. I use the Iron Cobra pedal with the small round padded beater.

By an octave, do you mean one pitch? For example, if I want to tune to a F, should I tune the bottom to a G?

Thanks
 
Re: TIM

moelar2 said:
You are excused my friend. :)

Thanks for your input - I've heard that suggestion (about pinstripes on top and ambassors on bottom) before, so I guess it must be pretty good sounding combo.

As far as the kick sound, I do want a more "clicky" sound, but not at the expense of depth. I use the Iron Cobra pedal with the small round padded beater.

By an octave, do you mean one pitch? For example, if I want to tune to a F, should I tune the bottom to a G?

Thanks
Click to expand...

No, You would tune it to an F , but the next higher F in the scale.

What size toms are you using?
When I was playing conventional sized drums. I always tuned my 16" Tom to an E (standard open E top string on a guitar)...
Do you happen to have a keyboard of some type, or a friend with one? If so, find the E note, and then hit the nots around it, finding the nots that sound good in a chord...that will allow you to tune your toms to pitches that work well as a whole (so that if you hit two of them at the same time, the will ring in unison/harmony).

I know alot of drummers think I'm nuts because I do all this stuff, but it pays off in the long run.
I know tons of drummers who just simply can not tune a drum-I guess they just never bothered really learning.
During Jr. Highschool, my Music instructor at school was a college professor... he started teaching music in college, and he said he was still getting people who had no solid foundation in the fundamentals of music, so then he went to teach at a high school, and finally moved to the Jr. High where I was, and ever since then-The Highschool has had one of the top bands in the state, because all the kids coming from that Jr. know their shit! hahaha
He stressed Drums from a musical viewpoint, or always as a tuned instrument instead of just "drums", so I had a heavy does of music theory for Mallet Keyboard (xylophone and marimba) and Tympani.

Tuning is extremely important....Heck, I've mellowed out in my old age Hahaha I used to tune the kick and snare to the root note ofwhatever song I was playing.

Now, some of my bassdrum things don't apply to smaller kick drums....I can put alot more tension on the 28" Kicks, and still have a very low pitch.

But if you tune your kick just like I was telling you, it will sound killer.

That Mallet is why you're not getting any click....the click comes from two hard surfaces "meeting".

Tim
 
I understand. I do know what an octave is, I'm a sax player, but it just didn't seem to make sense! I'm gonna try your method this weekend.

The tom sizes are 10, 12, 14, and a 22" bass drum that is two inches deeper than standard. I'm gonna try pinstripes with ambassadors, tunning the bottom head an octave higher. What tonal separation do you use? Do you just go down the scale? For example, would it be 14/E, 12/F(# Dep. on scale), 10/G?

I know what you mean about music education in schools. My high school had a pretty bad band as well, and it was all due to the fact that the disctrict had almost completely eliminated the music program in elemenatary schools. As a result, most people entering my high school were beginners! Anyway, the program's back on its feet now, and I actually give bass lessons to some kids :) :) :)


Moises
 
I would be careful about being specific and asking if the 14" tom should be tuned to an E. (BTW, my 14" is tuned to D.) Maybe Db or Eb would be best for your tom. I look for the note that resonates the shell the nicest. But, if you start at the 14" and work up you may find the 10" is wound up too tight. Anyway, I think it's best to work your way down the toms. Tune the 10", then the 12", then 14". Try in 3rds, 4ths or 5ths.

I also use Pinstrips as batters and Amm on bottom. This works well for me because the drums are birch and birch can be sharp sounding. The Pins soften the birch just right (for me).

Use a guitar tuner and a mike to check the fundimental note. Hit the head off center and softly.

Mine are currently tuned as:

10" Bb
12" F#
14" D

Actually, the toms sounded better when:

10" B
12" G
14" Eb

but the B on the 10" buzzed the snare so stongly and I coundn't fix the buzz no matter what. Since I refused to compromise the snare tuning I had to change the tom tuning. Snare sound is more important than toms (imho).

I don't know how the octave tuning thing affects all this.
 
moelar2 said:
I understand. I do know what an octave is, I'm a sax player, but it just didn't seem to make sense! I'm gonna try your method this weekend.

The tom sizes are 10, 12, 14, and a 22" bass drum that is two inches deeper than standard. I'm gonna try pinstripes with ambassadors, tunning the bottom head an octave higher. What tonal separation do you use? Do you just go down the scale? For example, would it be 14/E, 12/F(# Dep. on scale), 10/G?

Moises
Click to expand...

Well, there are essentially 3 ways you can tune a double headed drum:

Top head higher than the bottom.
Top lower than the bottom.
Top same as bottom.

I've found that the bottom head tune to the same not but higher in pitch has always worked the best for me.

Actually, I would want several notes between each drum...which you will have naturally with all even sized toms.

The shell material does not play as much into the "note" (resonant frequency) of the shall as much as you would think.
The Hardware on the drum will tend to make it go sharp.

So, find the resonant frequency of the shell-and THAT really should be the note that you tune to.

Heck, try any notes that would accompany the top head in a Major chord.

Let's say the top head is an Fmaj, then any notes in an Fmaj chord should work in theory, but it's all going to depend upon what YOU find pleasing.

I just know that the type of tuning I've been describing has always worked the best for me, and I get a lot of compliments on my drumsound, from other musicians, and from non-musicians.

Here's an mp3 that I recorded with my brother:



It will give you an example of what my kit sounds like.
This was close mic'd. there are no overheads. The cymbal sounds are all coming through the Tom Mics.

This is just a rough mix, but it will give you the idea.


Tim
 
Moelar2 - The last sentance in my post said "I don't know know how this octave tuning affects all this." Obviously, I've never used this or heard about it. I didn't make this clear? I would think that tightening the bottom head that much would choke the sound. Moelar2, go to the message board on drummerstuff.com and ask this octave thing there.

Tim -
You said "Let's say the top head is an Fmaj..." An F major has 3 notes F, A, C. You can tell all these notes from hitting a drum? From my limited experience and understanding with drum tuning (I am a guitarist) there is a fundimental note from a vibrating drum head plus a bunch of overtones. But to hear a complete chord is very impressive. Hats off to you, man.
 
Well he wrote Fmaj. As fas as I know this means an F major chord.

Fmaj = F, A, C
Fmaj7 = F, A, C, E
Fmaj9 = F, A, C, E, G

Moelar2, these are the only ways I've seen maj used. Just didn't want to see you on a wild goose chase. I'd post your messages and questions on drum message boards.
 
SBax said:


Tim -
You said "Let's say the top head is an Fmaj..." An F major has 3 notes F, A, C. You can tell all these notes from hitting a drum? From my limited experience and understanding with drum tuning (I am a guitarist) there is a fundimental note from a vibrating drum head plus a bunch of overtones. But to hear a complete chord is very impressive. Hats off to you, man.
Click to expand...


SBax,
You totally misunderstood what I am saying.
Incedentally I studied Classical guitar for 3 years as well as 6 years of Keyboard/Mallet.

No, What I am saying is that whatever the Fundamental of the SHELL, that is the note that you would tune the TOP HEAD to.

I just threw that Chord out to name a chord. It could be any note-whatever the corresponding note of the shell is, the notes in that Major Chord will work well for resonant tunings.
If you'll go and look at the earlier postings, I told him to look on a keyboard for steps in tuning.

My saying play the notes of a CHORD on a KEYBOARD, was to give him an idea of what notes would work well together for tom tuning, and the notes of the bottom head could be tuned to F,A, or C, and would work well, if the top note was tuned to an F.

I use 3 toms (15",18, & 20" Toms), so there's a nice sized step in the tuning scale, between the toms....so any notes that I give won't necessarily translate onto smaller toms... you'll just have to find the pitches of your shells, and then use the basic guidlines that I've been trying to describe.

Now, if you can't hear the Fundamental note of a tom through the resonant vibrations-go see an ear doctor immediately!


Tim
 
Sorry about that Tim, I see what you mean now. Talk about a thread getting out of hand. Never tried that kind of tuning but I will on my next project. By the way, I once bought a DW maple snare and it was stamped on the inside with C#. Wow, I thought, they already did some of the work for me. Well, two of the lugs were very hard to turn and I brought it back the next day. I said a $400 snare should have smooth lugs but they gave me so much attitude that I exchanged it, added some money, and got an acoustic guitar instead!
 
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