Reference material: What do you recommend? (anything except pop and country)

[SouthSIDE Glen]

well, reference material for a certain type of song, should be something sonically similar, right?

Why?

Does your band employ the same guitarist playing through the same guitar through the same amp through the same microphone and preamp in the same room, and mixing those same tracks of the same song with the exact same arrangement that accompanies the same vocalist, backed by the same drummer playing the same size and brand drums also through the same mics and preamps in the same room?

If not, there's no reason to expect sonic similarity.

And if so, you might as well just hang it up and let the band you're trying to clone do it themselves, because the last thing the world needs is another band that sounds identical to the first with half the talent.

Staying within one's genre for reference and inspiration is the musical equivalent of mating with your sisters. It doesn't take long before everybody looks like the banjo player from Deliverance...except without the musical skills.

Ya gotta figure out what sounds right for your band playing your song, and grab fresh DNA fron anywhere and everywhere.

Might it wind up in a similar class of sound to your favorite band? Sure, that's what makes genres genres. But unless you're in a tribute band, trying to sound like "them" is a dead end road.

Slash uses his own flavor of jazz improv, he doesn't try copying Jeff Beck. Joe Satriani's favorite album is "So!" by Peter Gabrial, not anything by his buddy Steve Vai or even his hero, Jimmi Hendrix. Charlie Watts recharges by playing with acoustic jazz trios. Neil Sedaka steals bubble gum piano breaks from Venezuelan classical composers. There are a million such examples and stories out there - in fact I think we should hear some of them from you guys; it's entirely relevant to this thread, I think.

When was the last time you heard a brand name audio engineer or producer say, "I wanted this album to sound like Album X", and Album X was by a band whose sound was actually anything even close to the band he was engineering/producing?

G.

 

[DavidK]

I use reference material with similiar instrumentation. I do a lot of stuff with strings so I seek out stuff with string parts.

I have a little, highly unscientific trick with regards to my crossover music:

I feel vibrations with my hand on a desk. If my bass parts vibrate in the same ballpark as the commercial ones, I am ok. If they are too much I can feel it. My room is not treated nor will it be, so I am constantly using cars, boomboxes and walkmans for checking levels.

 

[kubeek]

I really appreciate your suggestions, keep them coming!
So far we have here like 30 entries, so I guess I should start looking for them, and then listening and listening and listening

thank you all

 

[NL5]

well, reference material for a certain type of song, should be something sonically similar, right? Referencing a rock song with chinese gamalan music won't do very good, after all.

That goes beyond "genre" though...

 

[Daisy]

I recommend that boo-wap song by Hanson.

Boo wap ... bop bop boo wap.


And that one that goes "What is love-love-love ? Baby don't hurt me ... don't hurt me ... no more."

Oh yea ... and anything by Ace of Bass.

.

 

[TerraMortim]

if a person isn't having customers and only doing one genere of music, I'd agree it seems logical to get some monitors that work on that genere.

from my amateurish side by side monitor shootout last year, the more expensive monitors could remain the same over different types music (better tool). but my cheaper ones, on specific genere of music could sound as good.

so for me, I couldn't jusitfy the expensive ones because I don't require an extremely wide range of music. I don't go from orchestra to Rap to Punk to Bluegrass...to HM. In other words I don't work on Pro Race Cars so I don't need the $1500 Ratchet wrench...my $400 wrench is very nice. And I don't have the money..

but I definately hear some monitors sounding better than others on different styles music in the cheaper range.

I was just reading a book and George Martin has his huge JBL's and then the little Auratones....and he varies the volume during mixing etc...
But I noticed, he didn't say he swaps out monitors every other year.
Looking through the pics I think he's been using the Auratones for decades, the JBL's were the huge in the wall so I don't hear much about those kind on the HR forum or being swapped out, never heard those kind before....

I love monitors and listening to different speakers, but changing them out all the time is for Magazine Reviewers, not serious mixing engineers....imo.

Wasn't this more about reference CDs? What I was getting at, is if you want to reference, get something that's somewhat similar in mood, instrumentation, genre or whatever to what you're recording. There aren't really any universal albums that would work to reference for every single type of music on the planet. There are some great sounding albums, that sure, a lot of people should listen to, as it can give a good idea of where one could go with this stuff, but I would think reference material would be closer to what you happen to be mixing at the time.

 

[TerraMortim]

Why?

Does your band employ the same guitarist playing through the same guitar through the same amp through the same microphone and preamp in the same room, and mixing those same tracks of the same song with the exact same arrangement that accompanies the same vocalist, backed by the same drummer playing the same size and brand drums also through the same mics and preamps in the same room?

If not, there's no reason to expect sonic similarity.

And if so, you might as well just hang it up and let the band you're trying to clone do it themselves, because the last thing the world needs is another band that sounds identical to the first with half the talent.

Staying within one's genre for reference and inspiration is the musical equivalent of mating with your sisters. It doesn't take long before everybody looks like the banjo player from Deliverance...except without the musical skills.

Ya gotta figure out what sounds right for your band playing your song, and grab fresh DNA fron anywhere and everywhere.

Might it wind up in a similar class of sound to your favorite band? Sure, that's what makes genres genres. But unless you're in a tribute band, trying to sound like "them" is a dead end road.

Slash uses his own flavor of jazz improv, he doesn't try copying Jeff Beck. Joe Satriani's favorite album is "So!" by Peter Gabrial, not anything by his buddy Steve Vai or even his hero, Jimmi Hendrix. Charlie Watts recharges by playing with acoustic jazz trios. Neil Sedaka steals bubble gum piano breaks from Venezuelan classical composers. There are a million such examples and stories out there - in fact I think we should hear some of them from you guys; it's entirely relevant to this thread, I think.

When was the last time you heard a brand name audio engineer or producer say, "I wanted this album to sound like Album X", and Album X was by a band whose sound was actually anything even close to the band he was engineering/producing?

G.

I don't actually like using reference material on my band. I tend to mix TM in a bit of an absurd fashion. What I mean, is if it's guitar bass drums vocals, maybe getting something with the same instruments will make it easier to get the result you want. If you have that typical rock setup, and you bring in a CD of Tuvian throat singers, how will that help you? It might scare the hell out of the cliental, and put a smile on your face, but it won't give you any reference as to what your mixing.

But I can agree with your sentiments. I don't like using reference music, as I think it can stagnate the creative process of mixing. All great sounding albums don't sound great because they sound like someone else. I was just trying to answer the question, if you were to use reference material, you'd probably want to use something with similar instrumentation, or mood. I just mix using my gut feeling of what will make the song have more impact, and that varies for each song.

 

[TerraMortim]

That goes beyond "genre" though...

yeah, but genre is an easy place to start.

 

[TerraMortim]

I recommend that boo-wap song by Hanson.

Boo wap ... bop bop boo wap.


And that one that goes "What is love-love-love ? Baby don't hurt me ... don't hurt me ... no more."

Oh yea ... and anything by Ace of Bass.

.

what is love is still so funny when I listen to it. Just can't get the thought of the night at the roxbury scetches out of my mind.

 

[noisewreck]

I'd recommend Das Ich's Antichrist album. Sure may not be the genre (Darkwave) for many here, but the performance, sound design, recording and mixing quality on that record is superb. They got huge sounding drums that don't drown anything. Some seriously lush orchestral sounding stuff that also doesn't drown anything. The vocals are incredibly intelligible (if you understand German that is). They feature a bunch of harsh sounds that somehow don't irritate the ear.

Good study on how to make things sound big yet clear.

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

If you have that typical rock setup, and you bring in a CD of Tuvian throat singers, how will that help you?

Well, because the hot blonde chick that came in with the drummer's girlfriend happens to be a huge Richard Feynman fan . But seriously folks...

It might scare the hell out of the cliental, and put a smile on your face, but it won't give you any reference as to what your mixing.

Well, as I said, I'm not sure I buy the whole idea of "reference" in that context to begin with. I used to just accept that notion. But the more I think about it - rather than just regurgitate the conventional "wisdom" - the less that idea seems to reflect reality, let alone make sense.

It sounds like it makes sense on the surface, but frankly, I don't think I have *ever* in my 30 years ACTUALLY DONE a comparitive reference listen like that, because it never seemed appropriate. The mix in front of me always dictated what I needed to do, and what someone elese did somewhere else to some completly different tracks always just seemed pretty irrelevant in that context. And the more I think about it, I have never heard of a brand name engineer or producer that was inclined to do such a comaprison "reference" in real life either.

Think about it for a bit, Terra. Why should you expect the band in your live room (or in your DAW) to have anywhere near the same sonic signature as anybody else? Just because they are playing he same kind of music?

If that were the case, the Beatles would be sonically indistinguishable from the Hollies, Aerosmith would sound just like Van Halen, Pink Floyd would sound just like Hawkwind, Miles Davis would sound just like Louis Armstrong, Eric Clapton would sound just like Buddy Guy and Leonard Cohen would sound just like Tom Waits.

But the fact is, they don't sound or analyze out the same, and if you tried to force one to sound sonically like the others - especially if they were recorded on different instruments with different mics in different studios - it just wouldn't work right.

If that were the case, then products like Har-Bal would be the answer to everything. Just fit the curve and you're there. But we all know that's baloney.

And on a second point, re-read the OP's thread starter. He's not looking for reference for any specific genre or mix the way we're talking about it here. He's looking specifically for cross-genre "references" to use for ear education and critical listening development - or at least that's how I interpret it.

G.

 

[hardwire666]

I Only read a few posts. So, I'm sorry if this is repetition, but I couldn't wait. My advice is to listen to everything you can get your hands on. Weather you find it pleasing or not. Personally if i need some form of referance when I am mixing I find a song that has what I'm trying to do, and I listen to parts of it here 'n there while I am mixing. Kind of like when your working with a visual art medium. While working on a project that resembles the human form, you generally would want to have a model handy, or photos of one in the poses you need.

 

[DavidK]

And the more I think about it, I have never heard of a brand name engineer or producer that was inclined to do such a comaprison "reference" in real life either.

Think about it for a bit, Terra. Why should you expect the band in your live room (or in your DAW) to have anywhere near the same sonic signature as anybody else? Just because they are playing he same kind of music?

This is where genre comes in. If you were doing an a cappela choir or my fusion string-oriented stuff, I would exxpect some engineers to listen to choir recordings etc. I know my genre well, since I pretty much invented it. I would be lost doing a jazz cd or a choir concert, and I would certainly check out similiar CDs for a point of reference.

 

[TerraMortim]

I'd recommend Das Ich's Antichrist album. Sure may not be the genre (Darkwave) for many here, but the performance, sound design, recording and mixing quality on that record is superb. They got huge sounding drums that don't drown anything. Some seriously lush orchestral sounding stuff that also doesn't drown anything. The vocals are incredibly intelligible (if you understand German that is). They feature a bunch of harsh sounds that somehow don't irritate the ear.

Good study on how to make things sound big yet clear.

Das Ich is great, but I think a real orchestra would do them well, instead of the bad bad samples.

 

[TerraMortim]

Well, because the hot blonde chick that came in with the drummer's girlfriend happens to be a huge Richard Feynman fan . But seriously folks...Well, as I said, I'm not sure I buy the whole idea of "reference" in that context to begin with. I used to just accept that notion. But the more I think about it - rather than just regurgitate the conventional "wisdom" - the less that idea seems to reflect reality, let alone make sense.

It sounds like it makes sense on the surface, but frankly, I don't think I have *ever* in my 30 years ACTUALLY DONE a comparitive reference listen like that, because it never seemed appropriate. The mix in front of me always dictated what I needed to do, and what someone elese did somewhere else to some completly different tracks always just seemed pretty irrelevant in that context. And the more I think about it, I have never heard of a brand name engineer or producer that was inclined to do such a comaprison "reference" in real life either.

Think about it for a bit, Terra. Why should you expect the band in your live room (or in your DAW) to have anywhere near the same sonic signature as anybody else? Just because they are playing he same kind of music?

If that were the case, the Beatles would be sonically indistinguishable from the Hollies, Aerosmith would sound just like Van Halen, Pink Floyd would sound just like Hawkwind, Miles Davis would sound just like Louis Armstrong, Eric Clapton would sound just like Buddy Guy and Leonard Cohen would sound just like Tom Waits.

But the fact is, they don't sound or analyze out the same, and if you tried to force one to sound sonically like the others - especially if they were recorded on different instruments with different mics in different studios - it just wouldn't work right.

If that were the case, then products like Har-Bal would be the answer to everything. Just fit the curve and you're there. But we all know that's baloney.

And on a second point, re-read the OP's thread starter. He's not looking for reference for any specific genre or mix the way we're talking about it here. He's looking specifically for cross-genre "references" to use for ear education and critical listening development - or at least that's how I interpret it.

G.

Read my other post glen. =D I hate using reference material, don't use it, and probably never will, just was saying, if one were to use reference material, I'd imagine that's how one would do it.

 

[TerraMortim]

This is where genre comes in. If you were doing an a cappela choir or my fusion string-oriented stuff, I would exxpect some engineers to listen to choir recordings etc. I know my genre well, since I pretty much invented it. I would be lost doing a jazz cd or a choir concert, and I would certainly check out similiar CDs for a point of reference.

is that like how Al Gore invented the internet? har har har (just teasing with you, really)

 

[TerraMortim]

But yeah, then again, If I were doing something I was extremely unfamilliar with, I might reference it to something else in that genre... but I think it would be a bad idea anyway for someone to get someone who has no clue in that genre to produce/record their album. It'll just sound forced.

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

This is where genre comes in. If you were doing an a cappela choir or my fusion string-oriented stuff, I would exxpect some engineers to listen to choir recordings etc. I know my genre well, since I pretty much invented it. I would be lost doing a jazz cd or a choir concert, and I would certainly check out similiar CDs for a point of reference.

And tell me, as someone unfamiliar with those genres, what would you use as a "reference", Dave? Let's say you have to mix a jazz trio. Would you use something from Oscar Peterson, Miles Davis, Gene Kruppa or Ornette Coleman as your reference? They all had jazz trios recorded at one time or another. Which label would you want to get your reference recording from: Blue Note, Verve, Columbia? Each is a legit label that has recorded jazz trios, each label with a different kind of trademark sound.

As someone unfamiliar with jazz, you'd probably have no idea how to answer the above questions, and also probably not realize that what choice you make for a "reference" above will make all the difference in the world as to how or even if your recording and mix will work out right, if you use that as a reference. Unless you know your jazz, the chances of any one of those discs being an appropriate "reference" to use for the tracks you have in front of you is about as good as picking the pick four number in the daily lottery. But if you know your jazz well enough to make that choice, then you probably don't need the reference at all!

Would you expect a recoding of the Vienna Boy's Choir recorded in Notre Dame cathedral for Telarc to have anywhere near the same sound as the Harlem Boy's Choir recorded at the Ed Sullivan Theatre for Columbia? Of course not. So which one should you use as a reference for determining how your local church gospel choir recording should sound?

Would you mix Seji Ozawa conducting the Berlin Philharmonic performing Stravinsky the same way you would mix Leonard Bernstein conducting the Boston Pops performing Bach? I hope not.

Hell, come in closer than genre, even. No two Metallica albums sound the same. Which one should one use as a "reference" for making a metal mix? No two Beatles albums sound the same. Which one should one use as a "reference" for getting that "Beatles sound"? What the hell *is* the "Beatles sound"? There is no one "Beatles sound" in an engineering sense.

Listen to the tracks you have in front of you; they should tell you what they want and need much more truthfully than any "reference CD" will.

IMHO and all that .

G.