Recording with many microphones

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ZooZe

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Dear all,
We are involved in a project that requires analysis of acoustic waves in real-time from about 20 to 30 microphones, using one/two/three PCs.

Could you please give some advice for choosing the best hardware for this task.

Thanks in advance for your help.
 
virtualvisions said:
budget?

what equipment do you have already?

Thanks for your reply, virtualvisions.

The project is academic, so we are to keep the costs as low as possible, that is without sacrificing the quality of our work.

The only equipments we already have are: PCs. (We are almost done with the theory part of the project, and planning to start the real implementation.)
 
I may or may not be able to help you here, but your experiment makes me curious.

What is the purpose of the experiment?

What microphones will you be using?

What will be the source of the acoustic waves?

Do all of the mics have to capture the same acoustic source in one shot, or can the source be recorded with a smaller number of mics and then recreated with the next batch and analized from the recordings?

How will the analysis be performed?



sl
 
snow lizard said:
I may or may not be able to help you here, but your experiment makes me curious.

What is the purpose of the experiment?

What microphones will you be using?

What will be the source of the acoustic waves?

Do all of the mics have to capture the same acoustic source in one shot, or can the source be recorded with a smaller number of mics and then recreated with the next batch and analized from the recordings?
How will the analysis be performed?

sl

Actually I cannot tell much about the project yet. but here goes some short answers:
Our mics should be omni-directional and have low noise (maybe ECM8000)
The analysis is made upon the time of arrival of the waves to different mics (about milliseconds/hundreds of microseconds differences). And there are a couple of sources in the environment that produce acoustic waves.

Yes, in our experimental settings all mics capture the same sources.

So, one of our concerns is that, the time of the arrival of the waves to different mics should not be distorted when moved to the PC. That is the internal synchronizations of the PC (PCI workings and `sound card` itself) shouldn't change these delays. If this is the case, we would have to build custom circuits for this task :( .
 
Many soundcards allow for an external clock to be used - some via spdif, and others via a dedicated clock connector. This allows all of the soundcards to be synchronised - important in such a task.

Such soundcards would be (off the top of my head, and what I've used) EMU 0404 and M-Audio 2496.

I've done something similar in the past using multiple PCs, running Nuendo (works with cubase too).

One question though, why do you need multiple PCs?
 
ZooZe said:
Actually I cannot tell much about the project yet. but here goes some short answers:
Our mics should be omni-directional and have low noise (maybe ECM8000)
The analysis is made upon the time of arrival of the waves to different mics (about milliseconds/hundreds of microseconds differences). And there are a couple of sources in the environment that produce acoustic waves.

Yes, in our experimental settings all mics capture the same sources.

So, one of our concerns is that, the time of the arrival of the waves to different mics should not be distorted when moved to the PC. That is the internal synchronizations of the PC (PCI workings and `sound card` itself) shouldn't change these delays. If this is the case, we would have to build custom circuits for this task :( .

The ECM is a great mic in my opinion, but low noise it is not. You may get lucky and get one without much self-noise but a lot of them have it to the point where it's clearly audible. That might mess up your test results or something I don't know.

I'd get a measurement mic but maybe one a step up from that.

With 20-30 condenser microphones, you need 20-30 channels of preamps! Quality may not be too big of an issue as long as the preamp doesn't add a bunch of noise and stuff. You may just want to get a large, low-end mixer that has that many inputs but I don't think that will be cheap regardless of how low-end it is. Because each preamp needs phantom power to power the condenser microphones.

Do you want to record each mic to a separate WAV file/track? At the same time? If that's the case, then you also need a 20-30 input interface (which will replace the standard PC sound card).

I have no experience with big mixers and interfaces like that but maybe someone can offer advice.
 
ZooZe said:
Actually I cannot tell much about the project yet. but here goes some short answers:
Our mics should be omni-directional and have low noise (maybe ECM8000) The analysis is made upon the time of arrival of the waves to different mics (about milliseconds/hundreds of microseconds differences). And there are a couple of sources in the environment that produce acoustic waves.

OK, a couple of things about microphones: small diaphragm omnidirectional microphones are universally used for measurement because their small diaphragm size gives them the best transient response and flattest frequency response. However, due to the small size of the diaphrgam, the signal strength is low relative to the self-noise of the capsule. On top of that, various microphone brands have circuit designs that will be quiet or noisy, which can make the situation somewhat worse.

So you will need to define an appropriate signal to noise ratio, which means we need to know your planned signal level, and the nature of the signal. Another thing to understand is that microphone self-noise typically manifests itself as random broad spectrum noise, usually "pink" noise, which is random noise that decreases in intensity by 3dB/octave.

This is important, because while you might see a noise spec that reads, for example, 24dBA (for A-weighted), and you measure your signal strength at a given point as 20dBA, that doesn't mean you will be unable to detect the signal over the noise, especially if your signal is a coherent high frequency wave. This is because the self-noise rating is integrated over a broad frequency spectrum, such that the noise at a given frequency might be more like 10dBA, for example. Thus, you should only have difficulty if you are trying to detect very quiet or low-frequency sounds.

Which brings up another issue, the environmental noise of your test lab. You will need to establish that as a baseline if you are trying to detect quiet sounds, because that could also create a noise floor.

Finally, you say that you are recording two sources; if the content of the sources is identical, then you will be unable to discern which source is which at an given point with a single microphone. If the distances from the two sources to a given microphone are different, of course the signal level would be different, even so, without knowing the nature of your experiment, I would suggest using different frequencies for the two sources such that they are easily distinguishable. Otherwise, you would need to use a pair of directional microphones at each point, which would drive up the cost, and potentially limit your ability to detect very high frequency signals.

So, one of our concerns is that, the time of the arrival of the waves to different mics should not be distorted when moved to the PC. That is the internal synchronizations of the PC (PCI workings and `sound card` itself) shouldn't change these delays. If this is the case, we would have to build custom circuits for this task :( .

At a 100usec resolution, that will not be too tough of a task; that corresponds to a 20kHz sample rate (10kHz frequency * 2 for Nyquist sample frequency). In fact it's relatively easy for PCs to manage much higher sample rates.

However, you will need to define your necessary resolution, because if it gets much lower than 100usec, you will have problems with calibration. Given that sound travels 340m/sec at sea level, that gives you 3.4cm in 100msec. So you would need to be able to calibrate microphone placement with that accuracy; not terribly difficult, but if you decide you need say 10usec resolution, now you would need a 200kHz sample rate (192kHz is practical), and 3.4mm placement accuracy. That would also place a strain on the microphones, since there are no inexpensive microphones that are calibrated to 100kHz.

However, with a 48kHz sample rate, you get 42usec resolution with 1.4cm placement accuracy. That is reasonable in terms of cost for the interface and ability of a PC to record simultaneous tracks.

I'm not really a PC/interface guru, so I will leave that to someone else, but I would think you'd would 3 or 4 firewire interfaces with built-in mic preamps, but I really don't know how many of those you could chain, or what spec a PC needs to hit to do that many tracks simultaneously. Another option is a soundcard that can take 4 ADAT inputs (RME makes one), and then get four 8 channel ADAT interfaces (Behringer makes an inexpensive one, there are others by Presonus and several others I don't recall)

You really don't need to worry about distortion in the preamplifier or digital converter stage (the interface), if you are just trying to detect arrivals, I guarantee you we are a LOT more particular about quality than you will be ;)
 
ZooZe said:
The analysis is made upon the time of arrival of the waves to different mics (about milliseconds/hundreds of microseconds differences)

An arrival time difference in the hundreds of milliseconds? That's one big-ass environment. Anyway, good luck.
 
why not use one pc, one mic, one interface, and just move the mic around to different points and save the measurements to compare later? seems overboard to have that many mics set up at once. unless the test tones are not repeatable for some reason?
 
ZooZe said:
So, one of our concerns is that, the time of the arrival of the waves to different mics should not be distorted when moved to the PC. That is the internal synchronizations of the PC (PCI workings and `sound card` itself) shouldn't change these delays. If this is the case, we would have to build custom circuits for this task :( .
MOTU makes a 24 channel interface, if that's something that might work for you. You'd still need preamps with phantom power, and I'm not sure how this fits the budget.

As computers and recording setups keep getting faster, the delay time involved is called latency. Any latency inherent in the system should be consistant across the board. It shouldn't change the difference in arrival time of the source between microphones at all, but it might add a couple of milliseconds to everything. If you plan to get down to hundreds of milliseconds time difference and play back the sounds simultaneously, you're going to have problems with phase cancellation. You should still be able to measure the difference of arrival times, maybe using the mic closest to the source as a benchmark to measure the others against.



sl
 
Guys, microseconds are 1/1000 of milliseconds, so it's not 100msec, it's 100usec, which is 0.1msec.
 
Timothy Lawler said:
Two sources huh? Well, don't forget the 3:1 rule.


:D :eek: :D :eek: :D :eek: :D :cool:

Don't tease the newbies :p

That would only apply if you were mixing the tracks; it sounds like they are being individually analyzed.
 
mshilarious said:
That would only apply if you were mixing the tracks; it sounds like they are being individually analyzed.
See, I think that's a big mistake. You never know if something you record will eventually end up on the radio. Even FM stereo broadcasts sometimes mess with phase coherence if the stereo file isn't reasonably mono compatible... with all the multiband processing that mono-izes parts of the EQ spectrum at points in the broadcast chain. What if their experiment became a top 40 hit? Or an MTV vid? They should be prepared.
 
Thank you all Guys (specially mshilarious) for your replies...

danny.guitar said:
The ECM is a great mic in my opinion, but low noise it is not. You may get lucky and get one without much self-noise but a lot of them have it to the point where it's clearly audible. That might mess up your test results or something I don't know.
We are building just a prototype of the real system, and the sound sources can be manually adjusted, and so according to what you and mshilarious said, the self-noise in the mics wouldn't be much of a pain.

I think we can get an ESI Maxio 032 for about 600 dollars. It has 4 ADAT I/O with a PCI card. It provides 32 input channels for simultaneous recording.
But, for a placement accuracy of 1.5 cm we would need a 5usecs resolution. That is a sampling rate of 200kHZ. right? (347m*(5*(10^-6)usec) = 1.5cm) this precision is not good.

It would have been much nicer if we could have Asynchronous audio input to PCs. That is instead of periodically sampling the mic line at a high frequency, just wait until there is prespecified amount of activity in the line. (is there such a capability in conventional audio interfaces?) maybe what pezking said is something close or could be used for this purpose...
pezking said:
Many soundcards allow for an external clock to be used


mshilarious said:
That would also place a strain on the microphones, since there are no inexpensive microphones that are calibrated to 100kHz.
Ouch! This sounds bad. Do you mean that the response time of ordinary mics is not deterministic ? What we need, is that the difference between the arrival time of the wave to the mic and the time that the mic puts the signal on the line, is constant plus/minus at most 1or2 usecs. Would you please confirm this.


and at last:
foreverain4 said:
why not use one pc, one mic, one interface
Timothy Lawler said:
See, I think that's a big mistake. You never know if something you record will eventually end up on the radio. Even FM stereo broadcasts sometimes mess with phase coherence if the stereo file isn't reasonably mono compatible... with all the multiband processing that mono-izes parts of the EQ spectrum at points in the broadcast chain. What if their experiment became a top 40 hit? Or an MTV vid? They should be prepared.
mshilarious said:
Don't tease the newbies
Come on guys! we are not recording music or anything like it. the analyzed waves won't be kept for more than few seconds, before being deleted. I don't even know where this *two sources* thing came from! :eek: We have no constraint on the number of sources, but I think this isn't really important for this discussion.
 
Last edited:
ZooZe said:
...I don't even know where this *two sources* thing came from! :eek: We have no constraint on the number of sources...

It came from here:

ZooZe said:
And there are a couple of sources in the environment that produce acoustic waves.

:p

ZooZe said:
Come on guys! we are not recording music or anything like it. ...I think this isn't really important for this discussion.

It is if you have a sense of humor. :p :D
 
ZooZe said:
But, for a placement accuracy of 1.5 cm we would need a 5usecs resolution. That is a sampling rate of 200kHZ. right? (347m*(5*(10^-6)usec) = 1.5cm) this precision is not good.

5usecs would need 400kHz resolution, because according to Nyquist theory you need twice the sample rate as the desired frequency response. Also, I am notorious for dropping digits, but I believe your calculation above should be 1.7mm. I'm afraid that if you need 5usec resolution from commercial audio gear, you are likely to be disappointed.


It would have been much nicer if we could have Asynchronous audio input to PCs. That is instead of periodically sampling the mic line at a high frequency, just wait until there is prespecified amount of activity in the line. (is there such a capability in conventional audio interfaces?) maybe what pezking said is something close or could be used for this purpose...

No, pezking was talking about external clock source, which is just setting the A/D converter to use a clock outside of its own box. That is a controversial topic, but essentially the goal would be to improve the quality of the sample by using a more stable clock, even though the incoming clock signal would be subject to transmisson line issues as well as the receiver circuitry in the A/D converter.

I don't think clock quality ("jitter") would necessarily be terribly important in your experiment, as jitter is measured in nsec. It will manifest itself as a modulation the recorded signal that results in sideband distortion, but that distortion will typically be many dB below the signal, and as I mentioned it should only have the ability to shift an given sample (such as an arrival) by a few nsec. It is moot for you anyway, since you will have to use multiple boxes to capture that many signals, so you will have to synchronize all of them with a single clock source, whether from your interface or an external clock.

As far as asynchronous reception, no, audio interfaces aren't designed that way. I mean it's a very simple thing to build a circuit that flips on when a target voltage is reached, but you'd still have to answer the question of when, and for that you'd need a record of that signal against all the other mics in a synchronized fashion. Recording software will allow you to begin recording when a sound is detected, but that is subject to hardware and software latency, and I think you would be very disappointed with its performance relative to your required resolution.



Ouch! This sounds bad. Do you mean that the response time of ordinary mics is not deterministic ? What we need, is that the difference between the arrival time of the wave to the mic and the time that the mic puts the signal on the line, is constant plus/minus at most 1or2 usecs. Would you please confirm this.

That's a very technical question, but my gut reaction is absolutely no way. I mean, a mic is an analog circuit, but at its front end is a transducer with a diaphragm that has mass, resilience, air resistance between it and the backplate, etc. You are essentially asking for a mic that has 500kHz response. Then you have to consider the accuracy of the rest of the chain.

I think at this point it's clear your needs are beyond ordinary recording equipment, you might have a look around this site (you will need to register), although their products are not cheap!

http://www.bkhome.com/
 
mshilarious said:
5usecs would need 400kHz resolution, because according to Nyquist theory you need twice the sample rate as the desired frequency response. Also, I am notorious for dropping digits, but I believe your calculation above should be 1.7mm. I'm afraid that if you need 5usec resolution from commercial audio gear, you are likely to be disappointed.

I don't think Nyquist applies here. They're not recording a transient that only occurs for 1/200000th of a second. They're trying to detect the point at which an electrical line goes high with a maximum error in the time of detection. Presumably the frequency of the sound is much, much lower than 200 kHz. Nyquist only applies if you need to sample both a peak and a trough. They only need to capture a single high state and don't care much about anything after that.

To ensure an error of no greater than +/- 5 microseconds, you need a sampling period of no greater than 10 microeconds, or 100 kHz sampling rate. To ensure an error of no greater tha +/- 2.5 microseconds (a 5 usec resolution), it would be a 200 kHz sampling rate. You can get pretty close to that with 192 kHz audio gear. That's about the best you can do without custom hardware, though.

You should note, however, that the error can be slightly greater than that, depending on the waveform of the signal and the detection threshold chosen. For example, a sine wave that doesn't detect until it is halfway up the curve would result in a signficant error. That said, I'm assuming they can deal with that.

Something you could do, if desired---and this is pretty evil---is to get yourself four 8-track analog reel-to-reel decks. Record a 1 kHz test tone at the start of recording. Record at 30 IPS and play back at 15 IPS (or 15 and 7.5 if that's what your deck uses). Capture this. The test tone should be 500 Hz. Do corrections to your math as needed if it is off (or recalibrate the deck). Then, sample at 192 kHz, giving you an effective precision of 384 kHz, or 2.6 microsecond precision. If necessary, you could even bounce it a couple of times to new tapes at half speed. The key is to take the test tone and use that to correct for any errors in tape speed. Otherwise, you'd probably be off. :)
 
mshilarious said:
That's a very technical question, but my gut reaction is absolutely no way. I mean, a mic is an analog circuit, but at its front end is a transducer with a diaphragm that has mass, resilience, air resistance between it and the backplate, etc. You are essentially asking for a mic that has 500kHz response. Then you have to consider the accuracy of the rest of the chain.

The lower the mass of the diaphragm, the less delay in reproduction of transients. There are some cheap ribbon mics out there that would probably do very well in that regard. A moving coil dynamic would probably suck. That said, I'm not sure how much transformer ringing could screw things up. You're right that this is an incredible degree of precision. I'd want to do extensive testing with a single mic before spending money on the full setup.
 
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