Recording to digital stereo shrinks the stereo soundstage...

  • Thread starter Thread starter Tim Gillett
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It could be in relation to itself.

For example, you may have a mix that has a good stereo landscape, but when you render it, you lose that width.

When you say "render it"...are you talking about taking it down to 16/44.1...or do you mean something else?

Anyway...I get the feeling that the original question is asking that when audio is converted to digital, does it shrink the soundstage...?...which is why I'm comparing it then to what it was before it became digital....which would be analog...
...but honestly I'm really not sure what the real thrust/focus/point of the original question is.
There's so many variables...

Maybe Tim can elaborate what it is that he's referencing the shrinking to if not analog...and at what point of the digital process...A/D...ITB mixing/processing....summing...???
 
Maybe Tim can elaborate what it is that he's referencing the shrinking to if not analog...and at what point of the digital process...A/D...ITB mixing/processing....summing...???

Sure, no problem. Remember this is not what I think or what I have experienced. It's what Tom Scholz said, and others who have taken his lead.

May as well let Scholz speak for himself. The link below is to the full interview . Remember this was written not back in the 70's 80's or 90's but 2006.

" I have a hard time listening to CDs after working on an analog original because of what they do to the depth perception. The phase-angle errors caused by the A/D conversion really bother me. They bothered me the very first time I heard digital next to an analog original. I was always amazed that people didn't perceive that something that once sounded like it was located way beyond their speakers now sounded like it was on a flat plane...

All collapsed, basically... (interviewer)

Yeah. That's what digital does. It changes the audio waveform. People think digital is an accurate representation of music, and it's not. And because of the phase-angle error, all the things that your ear and your brain do normally to figure out where sounds are coming from to form a mental aural map, if you will, of your audio surroundings, it takes that and completely fools it. It turns something that had enormous depth and was recorded in a natural, beautiful hall and puts it into a little flat thing in front of you. So, as you can see, I've hated digital from the beginning. But it's cheap, and it's got a lot of features, and that's what sells.

If audiophiles had our way, we'd just go back to reel-to-reel tape. (interviewer)

I wish! There was nothing as good, and nothing ever will be, probably.
.."


Please discuss.

TG

30 Minutes with Tom Scholz of Boston | thirdstage.ca | BOSTON News, Video, Audio, Articles and much more!
 
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OK...so Sholtz is comparing digital to analog. That which he was hearing in analog to what he then hears after it's become digital. So his reference is the "analog original"...and he feels the that after the digital conversion, there is a loss of "depth".

I guess you can call it "shrinking" if you explain it clearly, but the way I read his comments it's more like he's saying the mix went from a 3-D to 2-D quality...it became "flat". Not sure if he means that it also shrinks the L/R soundstage when he say's "flat".

Well...like I said, my experience with my gear is that I hear the mix open up, get bigger when going from digital to analog.
I don't know how much different that is than what Sholtz says....as I think it's a matter of where you are starting to listen from (either digital then going to analog or analog and then going to digital) that changes the impression of what is heard.
Is the digital making it smaller or the analog making it bigger...? :)
In my own case, when I dump tracks into the DAW, that's where I do edits/comps and start to pre-mix, and that's where I first start to focus on the mix...so then I go from there back out and mix OTB, that's when I a hear the mic become a bit bigger/3-D.
I guess Sholtz was initially mixing in analog and then going to the digital...so for him it comes across as the digital losing depth and becoming 2-D.

I don't find his comments all that "outlandish" or that there are people simply following "blindly" behind Sholtz.
Go bounce around a few other forums...like I said, you will find top engineers on both sides of the fence, some saying pretty much what Sholtz is saying, though I doubt he's influenced them, rather it's just their personal experience...and likewise there are top engineers who say that digital does nothing to the sound...that it's 100% "transparent".

Like Jay and a few others have said...the gear each person has to work with and to make comparisons with can make all the difference in what they hear and perceive to be better or worse for them.
I'm not extremely stuck in either camp...I find that a hybrid analog/digital/analog approach really works well for me, and I think that for the gear that I have, it allows me to get the most out of both formats.

So Tim...while this can be an interesting discussion, and it's been had across audio forums many times...I was just wondering if you had some specific goal by generating this discussion...or was it just for the sake of some discussion?
I guess what I'm asking is...are you looking to come to some definitive conclusion, some kind of "truth" based on how people reply here?
 
So Tim...while this can be an interesting discussion, and it's been had across audio forums many times...I was just wondering if you had some specific goal by generating this discussion...or was it just for the sake of some discussion?
I guess what I'm asking is...are you looking to come to some definitive conclusion, some kind of "truth" based on how people reply here?


What's you're hurry Miroslav?

Sit back, relax, and see what other people have to say about what Scholz says about digital recording.

I'm just one person here and so are you.

TG
 
What's you're hurry Miroslav?

Sit back, relax, and see what other people have to say about what Scholz says about digital recording.

I'm just one person here and so are you.

TG

No hurry.

I'm just asking you what is it that you are hoping to gain from this...or is it just to kick the can?
You can say so now and still let the thread run for 50 pages.
 
I reads through the whole article, but Scholz didn't explain, nor did the interviewer ask, what "phase-angle errors" were.

Do you, or does anyone else here know?

Based on this definition of phase angle:
Phase difference between two or more waves, normally expressed in degrees.

I'm assuming the errors he refers to is that maybe he's saying that when converting to digital, something happens to those angles and errors are introduced, compared to what the angles were before conversion to digital.


...............????
 
I reads through the whole article, but Scholz didn't explain, nor did the interviewer ask, what "phase-angle errors" were.

Do you, or does anyone else here know?

I think I know what Scholz means and his reasoning seems sound. In any stereo recording/playback/ transmission system, neither of the two channels should end up more ahead of or behind the other channel in terms of time - within the design limits of course. Their output should preserve the same time relationship of left and right as the input. If they dont, ( we call it phase errors) things sound different from the input. It sounds different in one way or another, and in one degree or another depending on the magnitude of the error.. This is pretty basic audio engineering stuff, and no knowledgeable person would disagree with it.

But whatever whatever the cause, whatever the terminology, Scholz is saying that once you A/D convert, the errors are there and they make a big impact on the sound. They "really bother" him.
It's not subtle. It's in your face, or more correctly in your ears. And it applies , as far as Scholz is concerned to all digital recording, not just the CD standard.

What Scholz is saying is very different to what Ethan Winer said in post 2 of this thread. We are not talking about personal preference here, however important that is.
We are talking about whether an A/D conversion objectively and seriously alters a stereo image. Scholz says it does. Ethan says it doesnt.

Now, have I represented the two positions correctly or not? Please, posters, tell me if you think I have or havent and explain your reasons. Thanks.

PS. I'm certainly not trying to put Ethan in the spot here. I believe what Ethan says represents overwhelming mainstream thought and experience in audio recording today, whether professional or informed amateur. That is also where I stand.

I suggest that what Scholz says is demonstrably, empirically incorrect. If Scholz merely kept his audio views to himself that would be one thing, but he doesnt. He is happy to share them publically knowing they are radically opposed to professional and informed amateur audio recording thought and listening practice. If true, is that a concern or not?

TG
 
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What could you implement improperly with a digital setup that would reduce the width of a mix?

Something as simple as crosstalk in the analog path of the converters could/would cause the stereo image to get smaller.
 
Tom Scholz said:
Yeah. That's what digital does. It changes the audio waveform. People think digital is an accurate representation of music, and it's not. And because of the phase-angle error, all the things that your ear and your brain do normally to figure out where sounds are coming from to form a mental aural map, if you will, of your audio surroundings, it takes that and completely fools it.

This is really surprising coming from an EE type guy, because it's easy to disprove. First, the only way phase shifts can affect imaging is if it's different left and right, and clearly that's not the case with digital. Further, any phase shift in digital recording is at the frequency extremes, not in the midrange where it might possibly be audible if severe enough. If Tom believes phase shift is a problem, he should be more concerned about the phase shift in analog tape recorders which is vastly larger. Analog tape phase shift is also constantly changing, which is audible, due to the mechanical motion of the tape as it "sticks and slips" over the tape heads.

It's easy to tell by ear and with measurements if digital recording alters the sound. My Converter Loop-Back Tests article lets you compare an original Wave file with copies after 1, 5, and 10 generations. Even though the original is a Wave file, that's just as valid a source as any other. Either it's damaged audibly by subsequent conversions or it's not. If several generations are needed before you can hear a change, I'd say that's very accurate.

--Ethan
 
What could you implement improperly with a digital setup that would reduce the width of a mix?

Maybe a balanced XLR connector wired in reverse. Or some sort of unwanted feedback / loop-around in a send-return buss inside your DAW.

I'm convinced that reports such as these, that [whatever] affects imaging or fullness, is due to either acoustics issues like moving your head a small amount between listens, or failure to do a proper test such as not matching levels within 0.1 dB or not testing yourself blind.

--Ethan
 
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