Recording Technique....

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Ivo V.

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Hi everybody,

I've run into a little recording problem and a little songwriting problem, maybe you guys can help me out. I'm a guitarist so usually the songs i'm creating are based on some sort of guitar riff/solo whatever.......
How do most of you go about in creating extra instruments (bass, drums, strings, etc.) based on this relatively small piece of music?

The other question has to do with the actual recording of a piece of music. Usually I have some sort of structure (verse, chorus, verse, chorus, etc.) that I would like to use. I'm trying to play to a clicktrack (which is a bitch btw.). But what i wanna know is : do you record the whole piece of music in one take or do you create seperate takes for verse, chorus, bridge...and if so, how do you make sure they synchronise to each other (no clicks and pops)?

Thanks very much for any input

Greetz,
Ivo
 
Usually, by the time I have a rough structure of the song written, the other instruments start becoming more clear in my head. I then record all the rough parts together and spend some time arranging the song: refining the structure, switching parts between instruments, writing drum fills, deleting unnecessary musical ramblings. This can take anywhere from one day to six months or more..

You may want to check out the songwriting forum for more information on how songs are put together..

As for the actual recording, I play the entire song all the way through until at least one section comes out perfect. Then I will work on the other sections either together or separately depending on the complexity of the piece. I use a drum machine, but since I'm limited to only 8 tracks right now, I record against a mono track of drums sync'd with a track of SMPTE. I plan on recording the drums separately and loading the 8 tracks of music into the pc.

Cy
 
Thanks for you Reply!!

Anyone else care to comment ? especially on the recording site because for me it is nearly impossible to play an entire piece of music in one take. But when I try to record them using several takes I can't get them to match up properly (volume differences, clicks, pops...etc.)

Thanks,
Ivo
 
you still haven't said what sort of recorder you have, and the rest of the gear...that would help, but at least the type of recorder....

cheers
 
Sorry about that :)

Here's what I'm using to record:

P4 2.0Ghz 512 MB Ram
RME Multiface (8 in/8out)
Behringer MX2624a Mixer
Cubase SX
Shure 58 beta
Behringer DI-100
Roland PC-180 master keyboard
1 Acoustic guitar
1 Electric guitar (js100)
Koch 100Watt Tube amp with direct recording output

Hope this helps out. As you can see, quite a sophisticated machine. But I've got this problem I described earlier with recording in Cubase (or any other multitracking program). I'm really frustrated because I can't record a decent song. I can't do it perfectly in 1 take and I don't exactly know how to do it in several takes (the process of creating 1 performance out of many little performances without the cracks,pops and bits that don't match up at the end))

Greetz
Ivo
 
If you have to make a composite of multiple takes, what you do is make as many tracks as you have to do takes of a particular part. When you have to either replace a clam or whatever, what you do is expand out the waveform of the original take and the take that you're going to insert as a repair and locate a point of the two waveforms make a zero crossing (that is where the wave is exactly at the center line). Split the two tracks there, delete the clam and drag the replacement into place. If you make all your cuts at this zero crossing, your edits will be seamless with no pops.
As far as assembling verses, chorus and such, you have to play the song through as a scratch track, regardless of clams as long as you get the structure printed with correct timing and all to use as a guide track. Then do what I described above to assemble the song, a passage at a time if you have to.
 
Thanks for the reply Track Rat. I think I understand what your saying.

So is it common practice to record a guitar/bass/drum/whatever part in 1 take and then find the spots where you didn't play accurately and create another track where you play the part right. Then (try to) replace the part in the bad 1 take recording.

Is this usually done in studio's or do they say : play the first verse please, now play the chorus and finally they edit them togheter? if so..how do you deal with volume levels, attack..anything out of the ordinary (except clicks and pops, which you can ideed solve with zero-crossings)?

Forgive me if I push this thing to hard, but I really need to know as it's holding me from doing a proper recording :)

Greetz,
Ivo
 
It really depends on the band being recorded and the song being recorded..

I'm not a pro so I may be wrong here, but I think the goal is to record all the instrument's part of the song in one session in order to maintain levels and volume. Say you are recording a rhythm guitar part. You set all the levels the way they should be. Apart from taking a break here and there, your guitarist should play the track until you have enough to work with to produce a decent stable rhythm part. Any adjustment made to a mic, amp, or guitar and you are risking inconsistency. If the guitarist plays only half the track today, he could come in tomorrow and play under the same settings and it could be totally different from the night before because he is playing with a different feel. Otherwise, the track might need to be cut all over again.

When dealing with the smaller variances from take to take, the engineer will usually have the player start earlier in the song, like eight bars before so that the player can recoup his flow. You as the engineer only presses record at the section that needed to be redone (this is called "punching in"). You only want to punch in where it won't be noticed (for example, you don't want to punch in during a sustained note.. but maybe a break of silence before or afterwards)..

Cy
 
Ok that makes sense. So they try to create the part in 1 session but possible many takes and still edit them togheter. Cause that's what is confusing me. People say you can fix the errors in a take by punch in or punch out, but it'll usually screw up the entire take (with me that is ;)). Can you in fact fix these (tiny) errors or is better to do another take ?
Cause that's what happens to me : I record a take...it's nearly perfect but there a little error..I can't fix it so I have to do the track all over again.....FRUSTRATION!!! :D:D
I hope you can see my problem, maybe some of you have experienced the same thing ?

Greetz,
Ivo
 
Yep, that problem happens to everyone.

I've often had a perfect take except for one glitch, and the options were 1) re-record the entire track, 2) leave it in, 3) try to punch in at a break in the material, or 4) try some sort of editing.

If I think I can get away with editing, then I do another take at the affected part on another track, and do a crossfade between the two tracks onto a third track. I have to do this analog, because all I can work with is an ADAT. I'll output both tracks to my mixer, each on a separate channel, with the output going to a third track. The first track will be played at the same level as was recorded. The second track will have its fader all the way down. As soon as I hit the affected part, I'll lower the first fader and raise the second. It takes a couple trial runs to get right, and sometimes you'll have to be lightening fast to pull it off, but no one will know the difference once it's done, and you'll forget you even did it by the time it's time to mix.

This is the poor man's way of doing it without the pc. If you are going into pc, it would be easier just doing it Track Rat's way.

Cy
 
hey Ivo is your background Croatian or similar??:) ....

with your little mistakes that stuff up the whole take I would try the following:
Let's say you play the entire solo after your chorus and the solo kicks ass except for one little part near the end, and then after that part you did the excellent ending to the solo as well....
What I would do is not trying to punch in and then just do the stuffed up bit and then punch out, but simply punch in before the mistake starts (find a nice spot which is not so "busy") and simply keep going to the end of the solo, coz if you try to punch out you have two punches and more chance to record over something that you didn't want to record over....hope this helps...I'm usually bad at explaining, but if you need clarification on something, more than happy to help...
oh yeah nearly forgot..Don't touch your settings on instruments, amps, preamps, mixer or anything in your signal path, between your takes ;)
cheers
 
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With the computer you shouldnt really need to worry about punching in and out, you can just set up a new track temporarily for the part your replaying, and once you have made your correction, edit it in using track rat's technique.

I know in sonar you can actually have wav files within a track overlapping with the right settings, actually the standard settings, but im not sure for cubase, so if that last thing confuses you, just ignore it :)

Eric
 
My best songs were written by playing one great take, sometimes totally unplanned. It's usually a rhythm guitar track. Then, my old method was tapping drums out by keyboard then adding bass and vox. This method has gotten the coolest feel for me but it can be a real bitch if your timing isn't right on. The upside is tempo is non locked (like a drum machine) but the downside is no tempo reference. My trick is to tap my foot like a maniac while getting the first track but I guess you could tap a click in with tempo changes. Nowadays I play the drums out in real time with an electronic/accoustic kit. I woll say that is a million times better and worth learning. Staying tight is the key to rockin'.:)
 
Thanks for the reply's !!

Hey Roke1 my background is actually dutch :)
I'm getting a pretty clear picture now. You have to make sure your settings don't change AT ALL. I'll give it a go.
Btw. when you've got a riff in your song that repeats manytimes, do you play the entire track, or do you make some kind of loop out of it ?

Thanks again for all the reply's this is a cool messageboard :d

Greetz,
Ivo
 
I've been making tracks for drums, rhythm and vocals.
All are just temp.
This way I get the feel of the song I'm working on. When an idea pops up I add a track. Sometimes I dump one or all of the three original tracks and replace them with a new track.

When I do vocals I make between five and ten tracks. I'm not a singer, so this way I have enough tracks, hopefully, to have one good enough to use. I'm working on one song that I'm piecing ten different tracks together. I have an idea of how I want it to sound and can only experiment cuz I'm alone. No help. It's a learning experience though.

Of the five songs I'm currently working on, two are nearly done. One is almost like the song on the cassette I recorded when I first began it a few years ago. The other has pretty much been worked over from the middle out.

After I horse around with all these tracks and I have a good idea what I'm going after and what I have to go after it with, I begin deleting the stuff that I'm not going to use.

Then I pieces the song together with my rough tracks and listen to it day after day for how ever long it takes for arranging and recording sounds.

Then I record it, again. I take care this time.
I usually get everything in one take.
I have a PK-6. I'm a guitar player, not keyboard. I'm learning the PK-6 but my chord changes are still slower than I'd like, so I record what I can and take what is good and copy and paste it all together to make it fit.

That's how I get as far as I am. Right or wrong, I'm here.
As I get better I'll beable to learn the easy way and eliminate a lot of steps I'm now taking.
 
Ivo V. said:
Btw. when you've got a riff in your song that repeats manytimes, do you play the entire track, or do you make some kind of loop out of it ?

Thanks again for all the reply's this is a cool messageboard :d

Greetz,
Ivo
Click to expand...

That depends on your proficiency at performance. For me personally, the idea of looping one riff many times is a complete breach of my playability (unless the composition somehow calls for it, which it hasn't so far). I've been playing music for over 20 years and I started with formal musical training. So I have no real excuse to execute a perfect riff only once and carry it through an entire piece artificially. But that's just me, and a little hypocritical because at the end of the day I will cut and paste here and there if I feel the need.

If you struggle with playing the same riff consistently 50 times, and you want to get to the music quickly, looping is the best choice. The upside is that you will never have to worry about fluctuations in volume. The downside is you will lose the subconcious dynamics that come with rhythm playing, like pushing the intensity of the riff just before the chorus (of course, you could push up the fader to simulate the effect, but it's not really the same; plus, if you up the fader, then you up the noise).

Cy
 
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