Recording studio help

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busterblu

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Hi. I'm busterblu. This is my first post and will certanly not be my last. Great site. I've been doing much research and found the site during such activities. I'm a songwriter/musician (and now a recording engineer in the making) :eek: I've been a songwriter/musician nearly all my life but never put down roots long enough to build a studio and try to produce myself, until now. Couldn't really do it in the old days anyway. Now with the changing of the times, it allows us individuals to produce our own matrial. The PC and the internet are awesome tools.
I will humbly be seeking your experiences and knowledge on information that will help me get to where I'm reaching for. I will present one question at a time on the same subject until it's finished and then move to my next help topic. Hope all who posts have something to offer rather than speculation.
I've recorded a few songs in my wanna be studio in order to learn the process and familiarize myself with my equipment (another subject for later) such as compressors-OOOH- and others so now I'm ready to build the small studio so I can produce my work. Other subjescts will follow later but for now it will be about the recording studio setup at the least cost that I can get by with without comprimising. Well, lets get started:
My wife, daughter, and I just moved a new sectional onto our property after living in an old falling apart 1973 single wide mobile home. I now have a brand new room that I am making into a recording studio. Here is the facts (Finally):

First question: The room is 10 1/2 x 11' room with a 7 1/2 foot ceiling and carpeted floor. My two tables and neatly arranged equipment are set up and ready to go. Now, would it be defeating the rules of sound for me to build a 6' x 6' room (inisde the 10 1/2' x 11' room) to use as my recording studio? There will only be one person (mostly me) in the room at one time. Will sound not mature or will it go against the princleples of recording sound because of such a small area even though it will be treated for sound? Take into consideration that I will use that 6' x 6' area for micing acoustic guitar, electric guitar, bass guitar, small keyboardrd and vocals. OR would it be better to treat the whole 10 1/2' x 11' room as the studio? What say you.
 
First off let me say welcome aboard. You've got the right idea, real questions, one at a time. Theat the best way to get real answers.

Your idea to build a room within a room is probably the best way to go as the walls in modular units aren't very thick. You might want to rethink the size of your room/studio, 6'X6' will give you enough room for what you described but square rooms present a lot of problems for recording. You would be much better off with a room 6'X10' or 6'X9'. You will be even better off if you design the room without paralell walls. You have to cut a few weird angles but you will eliminate a lot of sound reflections. Others can explain the principles much better than I can, I just know for a fact that irregular shaped rooms record nice.

When you build your room, keep in mind that it is mass that does the most to reduce sound transmission both to keep unwanted sounds out and to keep loud sound in. A frame of 2X4s with fiberglass insulation between them, covered with a double layer of sheet rock on the inside and outside would be best for what you have in mind. A solid door which seals well will also be greatly to your advantage. Start with a good solid room, you wont regret it if you are serious about recording. If you don't mind loosing a little celing room, treat the celing much the same as you do the walls, a lot of unwanted sound gets in and out through the celing, as well as ac/heat vents.

Don't forget at least a couple of electrical outlets and good lighting as well as an access panel for cables (assuming you don't plan to put the pc in the same room.) Build your room first, later on there will be plenty of time to worry about traps and diffusers and other room treatment options.

You are starting at the right place, a good room. It has to sound good in the beginning in order to sound good in the finished product. Keep asking questions, it's a sure thing that someone around here has already encountered them and can advise you on how to overcome almost any problem you may encounter.
 
Dani gives good advice.

There are many sites out there that deal a LOT on the subject. You can go insane reading about all the concepts that go into building a great recording space. But most of us cant afford that!

I have been working out of a 11 by 20 room for well over 12 years making many, many albums and demos as well as radio spots and voiceover work.

The room is broken up into a main area about 10 by 11 feet with a iso booth about 7 by 5 and a 7 by 5 computer nook. The iso booth is actually big enough for a small drum kit. Most people enjoy recording in the main room though.

If I had it to do over I would try to find a way to have my computer in an isolated (airconditioned) closet to make it easier to record quiet stuff in the main room. Other than that it works great for me.

Small rooms , untreated ,sound small and boxy on recordings. You will do better to deaden the ceiling and a large portion of walls (at least in opposing areas) but leave a reflective floor that you can cover with rugs. As Dani pointed out room shapes affect (reinforce) sounds. all walls being the same size will cause certain frequencies to build up. Parallel walls will bounce sound back and forth as will parallel ceilings to floors.

If you want additional research material try here:

http://www.johnlsayers.com/

Be advised... It may be more than want to learn!

Tom
 
I'm sorry - but I have to disagree with both Dani and Tom on this one.

You're beginning with a tiny space to start, and would be much better suited turning this into a combination control and tracking room, and then treating it acoustically. (It sounds to me as if you aren't all that concerned about isolation.)

If you take a hunk out of this for even a small iso booth - you won't have anything other than a closet sized room for mixing - and this will be a nightmare.

Just treat it properly (referring to acoustic treatments - broad band will make the most sense) and maybe a couple of gobos you can place when you want to record if you find you need them.

Sincerely,

Rod
 
Actually Rod I am in total agreement with you.
I did not state it clearly, but when I stated the "If I had it to do over" statement, what I was trying to say is, I would find a way to isolate my computer noise , and leave everything as on big room. Most people seem to prefer it that way when recording anyway rather than being close up in a tiny booth.

tom
 
Fine tune our subject

Excellent post Guys. Dani, Tom, and Rod, Thank You. :) Stick with me please. I've read and reread your posts and have jotted down points that you've made resulting in a few questions so that I might fine tune my understanding. I will not begin my endeaver until I no longer have a question and I'm ready to build. Then I will ask no more on that subject. And be assured I will also be dilligently reading related material so that I'm not soley depending on you to understand the physics of our subject. Let's get to it:
First, Dani, since I haven't started building yet, I have the freedom to build any shape I want. If I took my time and built as close to a circle type room that I can, would that be the ultimate since corners are problem areas?
Second, is sheet rock the same as drywall? And what thickness? And lastly, should I completetly cover the inside of the room (ceiling as well) with acoustic material or is that wrong?
Other questions: Tom, you mentioned parallel walls and the bouncing of sound. Does that mean I should NOT totally cover every square inch of the room with acoustic material but rather leave two opposite walls uncovered or at least some design that uses that principle?
Rod, I see you go for using the whole room, which is small to begin with, and you mentioned I may not be concerned about isolation. I don't know enough to know whether I should be concerned about isolation. Can you give me a reason or example of whether a person should and should not be concerned about an isolation room? Is the reason sound related? Also, you mentioned a nightmarish condition to have a small mixing area. Is that also sound related because of the fact that my ability to mix will be affected due to the monitor speakers dealing with a cut up room that's not treated or is it space related? Thanks, as soon as I truly know what to do, I'll shut up and get to work. Thanks for the link Tom. Danny
 
busterblu said:
Excellent post Guys. Dani, Tom, and Rod, Thank You. :) Stick with me please. I've read and reread your posts and have jotted down points that you've made resulting in a few questions so that I might fine tune my understanding. I will not begin my endeaver until I no longer have a question and I'm ready to build. Then I will ask no more on that subject. And be assured I will also be dilligently reading related material so that I'm not soley depending on you to understand the physics of our subject. Let's get to it:
First, Dani, since I haven't started building yet, I have the freedom to build any shape I want. If I took my time and built as close to a circle type room that I can, would that be the ultimate since corners are problem areas?
Second, is sheet rock the same as drywall? And what thickness? And lastly, should I completetly cover the inside of the room (ceiling as well) with acoustic material or is that wrong?
Other questions: Tom, you mentioned parallel walls and the bouncing of sound. Does that mean I should NOT totally cover every square inch of the room with acoustic material but rather leave two opposite walls uncovered or at least some design that uses that principle?
Rod, I see you go for using the whole room, which is small to begin with, and you mentioned I may not be concerned about isolation. I don't know enough to know whether I should be concerned about isolation. Can you give me a reason or example of whether a person should and should not be concerned about an isolation room? Is the reason sound related? Also, you mentioned a nightmarish condition to have a small mixing area. Is that also sound related because of the fact that my ability to mix will be affected due to the monitor speakers dealing with a cut up room that's not treated or is it space related? Thanks, as soon as I truly know what to do, I'll shut up and get to work. Thanks for the link Tom. Danny
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No, you do not want a circular room, concave curves focus sound at their centroid. you would have a room that looked like an storage tank and sounded like a storage tank.

Parallel walls tend to cause the sound to bounce back and forrth many times, the so-called slap echoes. If both of the walls are the same width apart or an even multiple tha slap echoes in both directions would be identical and really problematic. Now if the walls are not parallel the sound does not just go back and forth but moves along the room and the time gets slightly longer as it does so. The result is a much nicer sounding room.

But before we really get too much farther along the real questions are these:

1. How much money do you have to spend.

2. How important is isolation compared to treatment. Isolation means you don't want the rest of the house or your neighbors hearing you when you recors and you don't want to hear what is going on in the neighborhood getting onto your tracks. Treatment is making the way the sound bounces around in the room desirable.
 
Innovations, Thank you. I'm looking at 600.00 but when you're poor like me , alot of the times I have to do what I can now and then each month do a little more and before too long I get what I want. Unless I go borrow the money. Also, thanks for the isolation reasoning. I feel pretty silly as it is kind of commom sense, but anyway, we live in a semi country setting where all the houses have 2 1/2 acres or more (with no one behind us except old stripper pits and 300 feet in front to the road, a house 400 feet to the left of us and one 250 feet to the right. I'm going to say it shouldn't be a problem even in the middle of the night, if that's when I feel like doing it. In order to record instruments they don't have to be extremely loud anyway, do they?Now, inside the house: If I do my recording while my little one is at school and my wife is at work then everthing is fine. Only thing is, by making that decision, I'm boxing myself in to a time frame for recording. I don't like that. Sometimes I'm up all night. I guess the bottom line is this: If the cost of a small isolation room forces me to discipline myself to a recording schedule during the day, then I have no choice. My question to you: If there isn't much difference in making a small isolation room for me to step in, with each of the instruments, wouldn't it solve everything we are discussing compared to treating the 10 1/2' x 11' room? OR is the sound in an isolation room so hard to control that it gets very expensive to do so compared to just treating the whole room and forgetting it? Sincerely, Danny
 
Just an afterthought. Have you tried recording anything in the room "as is?" There is always the possibility that the room may work fairly well to start with or it may be awfull. If your room sounds even semi decent you have a good starting point with the room itself. An extra layer of dry wall (gypsum board, sheet rock, different names for the same thing) might serve your needs. If the room sounds bad, then back to plan A and start collecting materals for your room within a room. (Just trying to figure a way to make this project the most cost efficient, save some labor, and still help you have a decent room for your recording.) If you decide to use the whole room, windows, door(s) and vents will need extra attention.
You wont need to "treat" the entire room. Some reflective surface area will work to your advantage and make your room sound bigger. Diffusers and traps help "tame" some of the harsher sounds and frequencies and eliminate most of the "boominess" when recording.
Round rooms just don't work for recording, there is some weird physics involved which is too deep to get into here.
 
Rod Gervais said:
I'm sorry - but I have to disagree with both Dani and Tom on this one.

You're beginning with a tiny space to start, and would be much better suited turning this into a combination control and tracking room, and then treating it acoustically. (It sounds to me as if you aren't all that concerned about isolation.)

If you take a hunk out of this for even a small iso booth - you won't have anything other than a closet sized room for mixing - and this will be a nightmare.

Just treat it properly (referring to acoustic treatments - broad band will make the most sense) and maybe a couple of gobos you can place when you want to record if you find you need them.

Sincerely,

Rod
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I think this is what I'd do given your space limitations.
 
Dani, another good point and yes I have 3 or 4 songs done that way and my drummer and his family think they are great but you and I both know that if you're not a musician, you can't hear how the sound sucks. Also I have nothing to compare it to but I know deep down that if the basic recording rules are not followed, at least to the point where you can get the basics down (when micing your instruments) then you can't fine tune the sound to your likeness later on because the sound is already subpar. The sound must be at its upmost best while recording. Each stage has to be the best it can be each time before it moves down the line toward completion. Also I have been recording internally so I haven't begin to mic yet (except voice) which is what all this is about. I'm ready to mic and that is what started me on this quest for proper sound control. Tonight I have learned already that Acoustic material is for helping control reflected sound and it doesn't keep it from going out or from coming in to some extent. Sound isolation keeps the sound from escaping and entering. My question is this: Why is it not the ultimate to have an isolation booth (done properly) and then treat it to give the ultimate in sound (using acoustic material)? Are we talking money that makes one choose his path? Thank you
 
Rod Gervais said:
You're beginning with a tiny space to start, and would be much better suited turning this into a combination control and tracking room, and then treating it acoustically. (It sounds to me as if you aren't all that concerned about isolation.)

If you take a hunk out of this for even a small iso booth - you won't have anything other than a closet sized room for mixing - and this will be a nightmare.

Just treat it properly (referring to acoustic treatments - broad band will make the most sense) and maybe a couple of gobos you can place when you want to record if you find you need them.

Sincerely,

Rod
Click to expand...

Rod and the others are giving good advice. I've included a quick drawing so you can visualize what you would be left with by building an iso booth. Even if you made it 3'x3' the resulting space would not be condusive to getting good mixes. Not only that, but when you consider the entry door into the room, the useable space will be made even tighter.

Treat the overall room, isolate your computer and record/mix in the same room. You're starting out with a small room. Don't minimize it any futher.

The money you save by not constructing the booth would be better utilized toward treatment.

Also, buying Rod's book, Home Recording Studio: Build It Like The Pros, will be the one of the best investments you'll make in getting it right.

My 2¢...
 

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You guys just answered a question I am faced with too. I have 14x12'9" interior I am building. I was planning, and this seems to give good support on what I was hoping, to do the same. The only thing I am planning, with angled walls or course, was putting an 18"x4' closet in for guitar storage, general cord and accessory items I don't want hanging around all the time that won't fit in my rack drawer.
I am leaning toward a semi-vaulted ceiling i.e.-not angle all of the way to the peak. Busterblu, are you planning anything on the horizontal corners of the ceiling? Not sure how important it is. I'm raising my just to get a little more spatial volume, and there is really not need I see to go flat. I plan on insulating with rigid fiberglass behind the drywall or wood, still undecided on the ceiling material. Looks like we're kinda in the same boat with what we have to work with. :)
 
First to seeker of rock. Hi. Hang in there and listen to these guys.(You're ahead of me on this subject). You'll have to follow this thread and listen to Dani, Tom, Rod, Maniac, innovations, and others who might way in. I know nothing. However, I know more now than I did yesterday. :cool:
I am making progress (though it may not be noticable). Well, I am going to treat the whole room!! No isolation room! Alright, I am on my way!! Feels good. (Thanks for the link to Rods book.) (just started to read Acoustics 101 by Eric T. Smith at 2 am last night)
Ok, Let's get started:
First: I resolved the computer noise the day before I joined home recording, so that's done. I took the closet door and jam off and sealed the area with the same sheetrock of the rest of the walls resulting in a room without a closet. Then I cut a 2' x2' hole in the sheetrock of the closet that I just sealed, at desk level height, inserted a small wooden food tray type table to set the computer on and my noise is history. The computer has six fans and a temperature monitor in the front panel for monitoring the internal temparature of the chip and two other places inside the unit. It always runs in the 80's and I will monitor it regularly during recording.
Second:Rod What is broad band and gobos? (Sound manipulators of some sort?)
Ok here we go. Now that I'm using the 11' x 11' room (tired of typing 10 1/2 ") for my studio with NO isolaton area, we can move on. (God bless you guys) There is one floor vent in the room, (closer to one of the corners of course), and one window as bedrooms have. Since this is a sectional, the ceiling starts at 7 ' on the outside of the house and ends up at 8 1/2 ' on the inside or hallway side of the room. ( wouldn't this be a good thing considering the ceiling is not parallel with the floor?) Also the floor is carpeted.
Ok, so we are back to a square room 11' x 11' (the worst possible configuration size room for sound) with a vent in it, carpeted floor and a sloped ceiling. When you open the room door (opens on the right side of room from the hallway), the right hand wall is taken up from the opened door to the opposite wall (looking straight ahead while standing in open doorway) with desks that protrude out 29" from the wall with all my gear on it except for floor gear, mic stands, small amp, etc. that can be taken out of the room when not being used. I actually have plent of room.
OK, Next step. Where do we go from here. My guess would be to acquire acoustic material and place it in the appropriate locations. Please, one type of sound control at one time.
Danny
 
busterblu said:
Innovations, Thank you. I'm looking at 600.00 but when you're poor like me , alot of the times I have to do what I can now and then each month do a little more and before too long I get what I want. Unless I go borrow the money. Also, thanks for the isolation reasoning. I feel pretty silly as it is kind of commom sense, but anyway, we live in a semi country setting where all the houses have 2 1/2 acres or more (with no one behind us except old stripper pits and 300 feet in front to the road, a house 400 feet to the left of us and one 250 feet to the right. I'm going to say it shouldn't be a problem even in the middle of the night, if that's when I feel like doing it. In order to record instruments they don't have to be extremely loud anyway, do they?Now, inside the house: If I do my recording while my little one is at school and my wife is at work then everthing is fine. Only thing is, by making that decision, I'm boxing myself in to a time frame for recording. I don't like that. Sometimes I'm up all night. I guess the bottom line is this: If the cost of a small isolation room forces me to discipline myself to a recording schedule during the day, then I have no choice. My question to you: If there isn't much difference in making a small isolation room for me to step in, with each of the instruments, wouldn't it solve everything we are discussing compared to treating the 10 1/2' x 11' room? OR is the sound in an isolation room so hard to control that it gets very expensive to do so compared to just treating the whole room and forgetting it? Sincerely, Danny
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Ok, bottom line six hundred isn't going to get you a whole lot in terms of isolation. It won't even get you all that far with building your extra booth. Knowing what you are dealing with here I would suggest starting with improving the accoustincs inside the room and perhaps upgrading the door and seals. Keep this one room and build some DIY traps with a bale of 703 fiberglass. After that look at possibly upgrading the door to solid core (which I am sure it is not) and adding some seals around it (which I am sure it is missing.) Apart from that you will need to get used to having the occasional track ruined by something going on inside the house or in the neighborhood. Such is Home Recording.
 
I am addressing Innovatios only in this post.
Questions 1. Have you read all my posts on this thread.
2. Did you read the post where I stated That I presently have 600.00 for the initial start on my project, not the total sum for the project. Some of us conclude projects a little farther down the road than others who may have more finances. Are you suggesting a man should base his long term goals on initail monies? Do you think that if a man doesn't have the total resources at once that he can't achieve the desired end results?
3. I live in hick country in the Indiana sticks where I don't even know when someone drives up the 300 foot lane unless my wolf hybrids let me know. You can here nothing during the day and occasionally the coyotes at night. The woods are all around the house providing a sound buffer zone but I'm sure you are aware of outside buffer zones shielding propertry and structures just like you do about in house sound characteristics.
4. Lastly, beware of a man whose first question is: How much money do you want to spend. It sounds like salesman.
Sincerely, Danny
 
Sloping celing, that's a plus already! Since you are pretty isolated and not too concerned about sound transmission your main concern will be room treatment. Forget about egg crates, foam rubber and styrofoam, these are all a waste of time and money. Some of the "acoustic foam" diffusers work well but they are expensive. Heavy drapes hung so they are a couple of inches off the walls are fast, easy and fairly effective for the same purpose. Yard sales and flea markets are a good place to find these if you don't already have a few in storage. Corners are a problem area, this is where bass traps go. Cut wedges of fiberglass (18"-2') and stack them in the corners all the way from floor to celing. You can cover them with burlap or other loose weave materal so the raw edges don't show. If you use these remember to pull them out occasionally, mold loves to live behind them in the corners. For the vent, get a rubber mat (the thick stuff like restaurants use behind the counters, about 1" thick) and lay a piece over the vent when you are recording, maybe even set an amp on top of the mat. The mat is easy to cut so you can trim it to a size which will be easy to move and still serve your need. With sound transmission not being a problem, the window is not a big deal, just some thick curtains or drapes to cut down the sound reflections off the glass should be enough. The door may be a problem. Hollow doors tend to resonate and cause some boominess. A solid door should be on your list of improvements. Untill then you could install a diffusser panel on the inside of the door to cut down on some of the boominess. (i said some, not all.) Are we having fun yet?
 
busterblu said:
I am addressing Innovatios only in this post.
Questions 1. Have you read all my posts on this thread.
Click to expand...
Yes
2. Did you read the post where I stated That I presently have 600.00 for the initial start on my project, not the total sum for the project. Some of us conclude projects a little farther down the road than others who may have more finances. Are you suggesting a man should base his long term goals on initail monies? Do you think that if a man doesn't have the total resources at once that he can't achieve the desired end results?
Click to expand...
If your desired end result is isolation unfortunately the answer is yes, because until you have the ability to do it right you will be throwing money at something that gets you nothing. It is like trying to build the left half of an above ground swimming pool and thinking that you can build the right half later. But the left half of a swimming pool won't hold half the water. It will hold none of it. If you want a swimming pool at all you save up until you can build the whole thing.
3. I live in hick country in the Indiana sticks where I don't even know when someone drives up the 300 foot lane unless my wolf hybrids let me know. You can here nothing during the day and occasionally the coyotes at night. The woods are all around the house providing a sound buffer zone but I'm sure you are aware of outside buffer zones shielding propertry and structures just like you do about in house sound characteristics.
Click to expand...
So isolation is unimportant to you, as you pretty much said before. That's why I suggested spending your six hundred on improving the acoustics of the big room.
4. Lastly, beware of a man whose first question is: How much money do you want to spend. It sounds like salesman.
Sincerely, Danny
Click to expand...
or maybe somebody interested in giving you appropriate advice to your situation. But it is pretty clear from your PM that you aren't interested in appropriate advice but somebody to validate your preconcieved notion, like the person insisting on being told what is the best way to attach eggcrate to their walls.
 
Hey Dani, excellent, I'm almost there. The fun is making me dizzy! :D
Hey, I've decided to use acoustic foam. Your points are well taken (Vent, Door, window, and bass traps.
The door, vent and window consider done.
Now, I've decided to buy the acoustic foam and maybe even the bass traps that I've seen for sale. (They are not cheap.) That means decisions have been made and the materials choice is over , for the most part! Moving right along!
Now my questions:
Now Dani, (1) Do I want to cover every inch of the walls inside the room with the acoustic material ( of course, always including bass traps) (2) cover only two opposite walls and bass traps OR (3) does sound treatment mean choosing problem areas (like bass sounds in corners, etc.) and certain predetermened spots on the walls (that have already been calculated by the sound pros for various room sizes?) and actually leaving other areas of the wall untouched? AND last (4) Will a couple of computer desks with a few pieces of equipment have any kind of an affect that's worth worrying about? Thanks, Danny
 
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