recording solo-double bass

[sniixer]

Hi

This week I'm doing a lot of live recording for a contemporary music festival in Norway (I'd love to put some clips from my recordings, but I dont have a site for it..) Tomorrow there is a concert with a solo-bass player, with contemporary composed music, I think.
Does anybody on this site have experience with this type of recording? I'll probably do it pretty straightforward: place a stereopair of microphones 2 meter from the player, in ORTF. (90 degrees 20 cm. apart.) Earlier this week I have tried recording instrument from longer distance, to get more room sound and so that the microphones are more invisible for the audience, but this only causes a lot of noise, a bit from m recording equipment but mostly from the room, it has great acustic but a lot of electrical hum.
Tomorrow I can probably loan some microphones:
2*AKG C3000b,
2*akg c451b
2* Audio Technica 30/31
2* AKG c480 with cardoid capsule

My question is: which mics should I go for, and are there any special techniques that I should consider?

My most suffesful recording so far, I think, was made from coincidence: it was a series of small acustic concerts that took place in different parts of the room. Therefore I placed 4 microphones in the middle of the room, and from above they looked like a cross:

. .
. .
.
. .
. .

2 AKG C451B 90 degrees apart facing the stage, and 2 Audio Technica 30/31 facing the back of the room. There was a trio with 1 clarinet, flute and saxophone, they played quite loud 3-4 meter ahead of the AKG microphones. Through the AKG microphonoes they sounded abit harsh and direct, but through the AT-mikes they sounded warm and with a nice reverb. But when I added the 4 microphones together, they sounded best with a good stereo-effect. (3 minutes of this recording was also played in the Norwegian national public radio! They suddenly wanted some music from the festival, and I'm the only one recording it.)

ok, the picture of the cross didnt, work..

 

[revoltingyouth]

one thing i have read (however i think it applied more to rockabilly slap style, but may still be worth a try) is to take a LDC and wrap it in some foam so you can stick it under the tail piece and rotate the mic till you find a sound you like. then pop the phase to match your room mikes, l and then blend them for a more direct sound. i dont have an upright so i have never had a chance to try this, but from what i have heard it works wonders.
you could also try blending a piezo in with your room mics.

 

[analogfreak]

stereo mic'ing of bass

Wow, I was just experimenting with something not too different from this a few moments ago. I just received a new pair of Rode NT5's today and wanted to try them out. Since I'm a bassist, I used solo acoustic bass guitar (Tacoma fretless).

Here's what I found: the pattern you describe (90 degrees near coincident, about 17 cm apart) is what I used. By the way, that's not ORTF. ORTF is 110 degrees. The Dutch version, NOS, is 90 degrees, but calls for 30 cm distance between mic elements. What you talk about is EXACTLY what I had done: a hybrid of the ORTF and NOS.

Anyway, here's what I found: a few inches were too close. Two to three meters were a little far (for acoustic bass guitar, or ABG). The best compromise for ABG was .5 meters. I would think, then, that upright bass would require a greater distance, because it's deeper in the low end (bigger body). Thus, my instinct, and this is gut instinct, is that a pair of your favourite mics (sounds like you prefer the AT's) 2 meters away would be perfect. Don't worry about the audience. They will tune it out visually in time.
How are you recording. . .DAT? MD? Cassette?

By the way, the tests I did today were done to my trusty Tascam 112 MkII analogue deck. Stunning results with the Rode NT 5's!!

Cheers,
Michael Yoder
ambient jazz duo
http://www.ambientjazzduo.8m.net

 

[sniixer]

thanks for the replies. Its good to get feedback from a bass-player. its interesting that 20 centimetres was too close,(im wondering why) ill try with 0,5 metres, but then I need 2 mic-stands.. When you recorded, Aalogfreak, was there any angle between the microphones?
I have also heard that omni-microphones have a better bass-response than cardoid, but im not sure this matters.. but if I tape the sides of the microphones, then I have heard they will become omni, maybe i will try this sometime.

I dont think I will bother to place a third microphone very close to the bass, but its a good tip, and I have nothing to lose from doing it, I have enough tracks. But it also depends on what the bass-player thinks..

I'm using a Fostex VF160EX recorder, and for preamps I use the venue's own mixing deck: a Venice Midas mixer. I also own a Presonus Digimax, but I assume that the preamps are not as good as the Midas.

About ORTF and the Dutch- solution: i guess it doesnt have to be either-or, and that a mixture of these tequniques is fine..

 

[sniixer]

I was also thinking about which height to place the microphones, does it matter? I guess that the sound from the bass goes i many directions, but I think I will try 1,3 meter up from the ground.

 

[analogfreak]

A couple of things:

1. It's much, much easier to use a single mic stand and a stereo microphone adapter, such as the Shure A27M. This allows you to adjust to exact precision the angle of the microphones and the distance between the mic elements.

2. The best thing you could do is get the bassist to set up a little bit early, and experiment with different microphone distances from the bass. I would start at 2 meters with an acoustic upright bass, because they are fundamentally deeper and fuller in sound. If the sound is too heavy in the low end and/or you hear too much additional sounds like the bassist moving around on his seat/stool, etc., then move it back a bit. If it sounds too thin, move it closer. My hunch is that 2m will be just about right.

3. I think you are right about frequency response and omnidirectional mic's, but you could run into a problem if using that in coincident or near-coincident configuration. The latter require cardioid mic's. I've been reading a lot about this lately. However, if you wanted to do a "spaced pair" with two stands, then omni's give a better stereo image. Use the 3:1 rule for placement (the distance between the mics is 3 times the distance between the instrument and the plane between the mic's) Of course, you would point the mic's not at the bass ^ but parallel to each other ||

Put another way, the mic plane is distance X, and the mic plane is .33X away from the bass.

My instinct on that arrangement would be to have the mic's 3.3 meters apart, and the mic plane 1.1 meters from the bass.

You might be right about taping the cardioid mic to make it omni. I notice that omni capsules for condenser mics don't have the little vents near the tip of the capsule.

Hope this all goes well for you! Let us know how it turns out! Try to get the bassist to show up a little early so you can experiment with many arrangements.

Michael Yoder
ambient jazz duo
http://www.ambientjazzduo.8m.net

 

[Richard Monroe]

I've done a bit of mic'ing up a double bass, but only in the studio, where room and ambient noise is mostly a non-factor. I've had my best luck using one condensor, a KM184 or a C414B-ULS at about 1 to 1.5 meters, in omni, and an AKG D112 close on the tailpiece. The D112, and its predecessor, the D12, were designed for mic'ing double bass, and they shine in that role, especially when it is bowed.-Richie

 

[krs]

Remember this is solo double bass playing contemporary music, so any monkey business of mics wrapped in towels under the tailpiece is not what you're going for. Especially if he's playing a Testore which would mean he would probably slap you if you even tried. Classical music = be VERY VERY careful of the instrument and respectful of it's value. They are expensive, often into 6 figures. Don't trip on the frikking endpin!!

I would definitely just use a pair and judge how close to get to the player on how the guy plays. If he playes like Edgar Meyer, you'll not want to be in too close. From my experience recording cello (which is structurally very similar too bass) most of the tone you want to record is radiating from the treble F-hole, so if you have too much BOOM, try getting away from the bass side of the instrument.

Also with contemporary music, there are almost always many explosive gestures, accents, bartok pizz, slapping etc. that will make you pay if you don't set a nice conservative level to start with ..

Good luck!

 

[sniixer]

thanks for the replies! People here are really helpful.
I ended up doing it really simple: the bassplayer used a microphone for sound-reinforcement, (through the PA-system), and I split that microphone into my own recorder. The microphone used was AKG c480 with cardoid capsule, placed about 1 meter from the bass. (I think it sounded pretty good, at least a clean signal) I also used 1 AKG C451B about 3-4meter from the bass, pointing towards the bass, but the bass was not pointed towards the mic. Anyway, this mic sounded quite noisy, mostly because of the noise in the monitors and electricity on the stage.
It turned out that he only played solo in the first set, and the second he played duo with a piano. (therefore my second c451b was pointing towards the piano.)
I wish I had more time to try out the tequniques you mentioned, but with my live recordings I never get the time or chance to do this.. right now it seems more interesting to record without an audience, so that the musicians can wait for me to finish my setup.

 

[Richard Monroe]

Well, yeah. A live situation also involves massive bleed from the PA, which is most likely the primary source of your noise problem. A live situation can't produce ideal audio quality, even with close mic'ing. That's one of the reasons I recommended a dynamic such as D112. It's one of rhe mics for that application that is very bleed-resistant.-Richie