Recording room designs (fixed image problem)--Please evaluate

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MArch_Thesis

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Sorry everybody, my html is a little rusty. Apparently the images weren't showing up on some browsers after my previous post. I fixed the code, and all should be well now. The original message is below. Please try to take another look!

Hey everybody, I'm a graduate student doing research on recording studio design and acoustics. I have developed two design alternatives for a musical recording room, and I would very much appreciate if all you board moderators, producers, engineers, and other experts out there would review and evaluate my designs. I have created online evaluation forms for each of the designs. Thanks a lot. Here is the address:

http://acustics.netfirms.com/eval_intro.htm
 
Give it another shot of WD-40,:D it still doesn't work for me.

fitZ
 
Hmmm, I'm at a loss here. I've been able to view the site on multiple computers with both IE and Netscape. Maybe you can help me troubleshoot. Are you able to access the pages but not see the images, or are you not even able to access the pages? What browser/version are you using? Thanks for your help.

Shane
 
Hello Shane, I get a page with a promp saying something about having to log in to view MY page. No place to log in, no choices, no nothing.
fitZ
 
Very nice. However. Who are you trying to impress? Home recording enthusiasts? Hahahaha......give me a break. And actually, I don't get it. Why are you looking for approval here? ! Do you REALLY think home recording enthusiasts here could afford that? If not, then whats the point? People who post REAL stuff here they've built with their OWN two hands impresses me. Architectural student pipe dreams do NOT. Cause you haven't got a CLUE what people do here to streach a dollar. Try marketing it to a rock star, or someone who can afford 2 or 3 hundred thousand if not more for it, cause thats what it would cost. Otherwise, post a design thats relevant to home studio, with a budget of $3000. THAT would impress me. Otherwise, your just another architect with big dollar designs looking for a client. Don't think you'll find them here.

fitZ:rolleyes:
 
Yeah, Rick but what do you REALLY think? :=)

March, I might have been a bit more subtle but Rick nailed it - is your real motive resume building in the quest for a job at WSDG or Russ Berger? Not that I would kick something like that outa my back yard for being the wrong color, but it is just a bit over the top for almost everyone at these types of boards... Steve
 
Hey Stranger:D Just another grouchy old fart with low batterys here. So, what do I REALLY think. You ain't gonna like it. I think Architectural Schools teach class division. Seen any working class people who can afford an architect, let alone a doctor, lately. In my entire life, I've never met anyone who can afford an architect, let alone the buildings they design. To me, pure architecture, is for the financially well endowed, PERIOD. Show me one working class person who can, and I'll tell you your out of your mind. Architects don't design for working hacks. They can't make any money from it cause they charge by a percentage of the total construction package. And from what I've seen during my life, its just like the cartoon in PLAYBOY......"step aside everyone, ARCHITECT comeing through...."......give me a break:rolleyes: I haven't met a lot of them, but everyone I HAVE met was a meglamaniac egotistical condensending asshole. PERIOD. THATS what I think. Any more questions?

the REAL fitZ
 
"Any more questions?" - Yeah, I want a CNC machine that you feed with dogshit and it spits out acoustically correct studios, cause I'm tired of studying - seen one yet? And how can we steal it?

Actually, I'd settle for a backhoe and dumptruck that stop making me test my electrical trouble-shooting chops... Steve
 
Wow. It sounds like you guys really hate architects. If that's the case, then you haven't met any good ones. I'm not trying to impress anybody with my designs, or meet anyones approval. I'm well aware that my designs would cost a million billion dollars to build, but that's the great thing about being in school--you are allowed to push the design envelope with creativity and innovation, and not be constrained by cost or practicality. I'll worry about real-world issues after school. My post to this BB was aimed more at moderators and experts who browse them, not the home recording enthusiasts trying to stretch a dollar, but they are certainly welcome to take a look.
 
Nah, we don't hate architects (well, maybe Rick does :=) it's just that those of us who've lived long enough to start to understand the physics involved with acoustics/sound isolation are pretty much too tired to dream about stuff we can't have, and just wanna "make it work" within our own particular budgets and then get on with "makin' noise" - If you check out some of the threads here on vocal booths, you'll see what I mean - C'mon, moving blankets??!? How desperate is that? I've given up trying to explain why that doesn't work (other than muffling the highs and deadening the recorded sound beyond lifeless)

My own situation is this - I need a REALLY isolated facility (neighbors with 440 Mopar race cars, others with automatic weapons (cops) who like to practice often, others who are too stupid to be able to train their dogs to shut the f--- up, hay balers, tractors, occasional helicopter flyovers, etc.) And, I want it to sound good inside.

Considering my budget might buy one of your walls (around $70k) I decided to spend the time to learn enough about the stuff to NOT have to pay for someone ELSE's college education, and do the bulk of the work myself.

What that means to me is nice looking but PRACTICAL - and practical, from a budget/time standpoint, doesn't allow for things like rotating variable acoustic panels (well, maybe a few in the live room) - it DOES allow for things like an 8" concrete shell so I can use a lighter inner wall to save having massive amounts of bass trapping required, and steel-framed inner walls, RFZ, floated floors, etc - even that amount will require careful budgeting and design, which (if I were to HIRE done, would preclude being able to actually BUILD it)

I'm 58 years old and would sorta like to actually USE this facility before they "pat me in the face with a shovel", so saving for another 20 years isn't an option.

Sooo, I don't "hate" architects, I just hate spending money that isn't there... Steve
 
RICK FITZPATRICK said:
Any more questions?

the REAL fitZ

Nope ;) Buuuu

ut I found a little red button :)

I used to be a drafter working for an Archtect. My experiences were good. My boss was a hard worker and made it point that he worked for the clients, to help them realize thier dreams. But maybe its becaue he graduated from school more than 50 years ago. I think most colleges nowdays have driften into the class division teaching you talk about. For instance where I work we get alot of inexperienced primadonnas who for some reason think their 4 year degree is a ticket to the executive suite. The older guys are even baffled by the level of arrogancy. It could be that colleges have gotten so expensive that only the offspring of the pompass are able to afford college? My sister fits that class of person. I went to drafting school and then went and got specialized internal education at Boeing. Military R&D programs are so far out in front that colleges can't teach you.

There was an architect glut in the mid 80's so school dropped their courses. That why I ended up as a design engineer and not an Architect. But... my passion is music. My parents refused to pay for music education (see rich parents) because it wasn't prestigious enough! I took engineering and then finally said no and quit. Then I spent 6 years learning music...most of it forgotten but I enjoy recording and being around other musicians far more than the engineers I work with all day. Im babbling now so this is a test to whether your skimming for flames or Ive actually captivated you with my almost pointless rhetoric about absolutely nothing.

Nice rendering though, I did my studio design in CATIA, ever heard of it?


Peace,
SoMm
 
Those renderings are cool as hell. I thought the first couple were photos. Hell, they even have the little glare spots you'd expect from a lens.

I kinda dig where Rick is coming from, but hey, everybody needs a gig, ya know?

I like architects. I ESPECIALLY like architects that can't make up their minds for more than a week or two. Those guys have put A LOT of $$$ in my pockets over the years.

I like customers too. Especially really stupid customers with little or no ability to visualize a finished building or room. Those guys have lined my pockets too over the years.

The best combination, of course, is an architect customer that can't make up his mind. I did the lighting in one architects' office 3 times because he just couldn't picture it in his mind. He had to see it first. What a dumbass!!! But you know the guy was loaded too so I'll gladly shuffle fixtures all over a ceiling grid until the guy is happy.

It all pays the same.:D
 
Ok, Shane, Steve, SofMM, and Csus.....let me put this in perspective. My perspective, because I'm the one that caused this. You may not like it, but I've EARNED my opinion, so too bad.

First off, I DON"T hate architects. On the contrary, architecture was my first love. Untill I found music. I spent a good portion of my life as a WORKING musician. Not a hit record chasing life, but an honest down in the trenches ...woodsheding, playing 6 and 7 night a week, and sometimes twice on Sunday working musician. After 20 years, and still making $50 a night, I decided that something is wrong with the system. After meeting european musicians, I was enlightened to the fact that our culture has its proverbial head up its ass. A pop music and fast food society places little value on experience. Or quality. But great value on a document that says you have learned something, whether you did or not. Once I understood that MUSICIANSHIP is NOT valued here, at least in working wage perspective, I was able to "relieve" my ambitions towards jazz. Jazz feeds and cloths no kids. And my kids waited forever. THAT was the real problem. Coming to grips with music as a vocation, was disheartening at best, heartbreaking at worst. But I bit my lip. Besides, I had a lot of great times as a musician. Times I wouldn't trade for a degree in architecture.
When I was 35 years old, I had very few marketable skills, other than working for the military for 3 years. Nothing I learned there was of any potential wage earning. But I did have one ace. I was creative. I tried to enroll in a local city college, hoping to aim at a degree in Architecture. One enlightening meeting with a school administrator ended that pipe dream. How does one pay for school, go to school, and earn a living to feed a family, at minimum wage at the same time. Ha! Reality check.
This was at a time, when the country was in recession, and there were NO jobs. At least not for people like me. And with no income, eviction and starvation was becoming a very real affair, whether you believe it or not. I lived it. Enough said. So, what to do. Hunger rationalizes a lot of pride.
I had seen some crafts shows, and a huge flea market went on every weekend in the city I lived in. I decided to build some wood craft items and see if they would sell. I had built a couple of electric guitars in the past, and had a few hand tools and a router, drill ...the usual home tools. What I DIDN"T have was a way to cut wood. So I sold my pride and joy...my 1962 original Strat. Got enough to buy a used craftsman table saw. Spent a few days gathering materials from anywhere I could. Construction sites, fence companys, local cabinet shops etc. Had no money to buy materials so I had to learn to use what I could, to make interesting and unique crafts. And you know what? It worked. AND it was funner than hell. I had a ball. And it sold like hotcakes. I was amazed. I look back now and roll my eyes. Ha! What gall!!
One thing led to another, and within a year, I had a shop, full of GREAT tools, and had a craft store, right on the corner of a busy street in Sacramento. I called my shop "Environmental Woodcraft", kinda after reading an architecture book called Environmental Design. The nerve. But at least it was truth, because I only used recycled wood, old hardware, and unique accessories.
I had a great sense of design, unlimited materials....not great, but I knew how to get the best out of it. Good design always sells. Even if its a toilet seat.
During this time, I had a chance to design....and build, a local downtown artsy fartsy coffeehouse/restuarant/bakery hangout. I knew nothing about that level of design or the ergonomics nor the legalitys of commercial interior design. I didn't care either. I just did it and it came out fantastic. I built EVERYTHING. From counters, tables, chairs, booths, displays, art, lamps, kitchen and fixtures, Signage, bathrooms...from back door to the front door and windows. It took 6 weeks working 20 hr days. But I did it, AND came in at $15,600 below his lowest bid. Not only that, from the day it opened, it was standing room only, for a good 15 yrs.
2 days after it opened, the Sac Bee did a half page article on my work. From that point on, for 2 years, it was nothing but kicking ass freedom.....3 restaurants, a music store, a couple of high end men and womens hairdressing boutiques, a gift store, record store, 2 tourist bars, a local rock music bar, home and business fixtures, fun rooms..and tons of CRAFTS........UNTILL...I met an architect.
One day, a local well known architect came in. He had a set of plans and asked me if I would be interested in bidding on a project for a chain of small hotdog and hamburger restaurants. Custom booths with a 19th century design. I said I'd be interested, so what do I do? Bid, that's all there is to it. Ok, sounds easy. I looked into the plans, looked simple enough. So I did. Took a day, and I submitted it. A week later he called me into his PLUSH office, and proceeded to tell me I had come in at $500 over the lowest other bid. He wanted to know why? WHY? I should have told him I don't read minds. How do I know why, I bid it and thats all there was to it. WHY
indeed. Why does the wind blow? Ha! He proceeded to tell me that ineffeciency would be my downfall. I wouldn't be able to compete. WTF!! Compete? FUCK YOU! I don't NEED any stinking competing. I'm doing perfectly fine with NO competing bub. So take your plans burn them for all I care. Fine. OF all the nerve. So much for first experiences. Besides, his design sucked. A degree in architecture does not guarantee great design.
On to the business at hand. Having fun, making a living doing what I WANT to do. Not grovel for some hotdog job at the lowest bid. FUCK THAT. Right then and there, it dawned on me. I had a good sense of design. I had a business. I owned my tools, and I was makeing a living. Not great, but a free, honest living, selling MY design. NOT building others. Little did I know, progress creates potential for disaster. During the time I was in this building, it was becoming kind of a local crafts and antique "mall". The building was the oldest concrete building in Sacramento. It was an old DAIRY. When it was built in the early 1900's it was farmland. Now it was right downtown. Ha! What a history. It was a speakeasy, and brewery during the prohibition. Local old farts would come by and spend countless hours telling me storys. One of them happened to be a retired architect. He came by at least once a week while out on a walk.
He told me he admired what I was doing. I told him I admired architects and I'll never forget what he said. He told me to take pleasure in using my hands. What I do with my hands, can never be duplicated on paper. He said architecture had become an experience in design by commitee. And approval. By the government as well as "design review" boards. Free design only comes from your hands. No matter how small. or large. I still believe that.

What a great time. Great old building too. 3 storys, with all kinds of rooms, and one 3 story room lined with white tile. That was the shop. Would have made the best reverb room known to man!:D It also had a series of gravity rooms for cooling the coils. These were fucking great. Lined with 12" thick cork. Talk about anachoic. AND every wall in the building was 14" thick concrete. Perfect studio rooms. If only I had the money at the time, I could have made a studio designed in heaven.
Slowly but surely, other craftsman came in and rented space from me. I didn't own it, but rented 12,000 sq ft for $300 per mo. What a steal. It was a wreck when I came in. It was unique as hell when I left. What I didn't realize, was property values were shooting up at a phenomenal rate during that time. That was my undoing. One day, the owner sent me an letter stating I had 30 days to move. He had sold the building. I later learned he sold it for a WHOPPING $5 mil. Crap. So much for my second dream.
So....what to do now. Well, I decided to go to work for other shops for a while. Till I could regroup. Never happened. One thing led to another and 20 more yrs went by. BUT....during this time I gained some hard earned lessons, skills, and knowledge. This is where the attitude comes from. While I'm no expert at anything, I'm also no fool, and when it comes to my area of expertise, I'm one of the best. Thats why Macys, or Federated Dept. Stores routinely used my details in their project scope and detail books for issuing to other contractors for large store fixture projects. But I didn't work for them. The architects simply TOOK the details I submitted. and used them as thier own. Fuck them. One dickhead had the audacity to claim they were his details, not knowing I was the one that drew them. The series he took had one mistake. I fixed it in a submittal and the prick redlined it. What a fucking moron.
Over a 15 yr period, I had the unfortunate although enlightening displeasure to interface with countless hundreds of snotnosed punk architects, who, although working for a design department for a department store corporation, thought they were gods gift to the design world and knew everything. Little did they really know. I had countless sessions with arrogant, condencending shitforbrains idiots, who's only claim to REAL design, was how to interpret REAL construction documents, and then redline them. Ha. Untill they got mine. Out of 15 yrs work, I only had four or five drawings with red marks on them. Most of the time it was ME, telling them they couldn't build thier assinine designs, the way they had them drawn. Time after time, I had to relay detail after detail, to the point their original design was useless, only to change into what I designed by detail. THAT my friend is the REAL point. If it weren't for the fact, that it is the TRADES and CRAFTSMAN that DETAIL designs, architects would have NOTHING. It is this pure fact, that tells me design is USELESS unless you can build it. And if you rely on other people to tell you HOW to build it, then your design is bullshit. Take a look at ANY set of architectural documents issued for construction, and 90% of it is DETAILED by prior TRADE STANDARDS, and or specialty expertise. Design my ASS. Its only as good as the peoples expertise who are destined to build it. THEY are the ones who ultimately design it. Not what some pencil and mouse pushing designer thinks they are designing. Yea, look at a city. Every building, and detail is different. BUT, if it weren't for the people and companys that design the products, materials, processes, tools, and skills, thier design wouldn't be worth the paper its drawn on. Besides, modern citys SUCK. BIG TIME. So do malls. So do residential "villages". Ugly fucking brain farts. Drive through the Sacramento Valley and you'll see thousands of acres of em.
So give me a break. Architect smarkatect. Your only a thought arranger. I have more respect for the painter that flicks his bush full of paint up the back of your $2000 suit. At least he talks
decent to me.
And let me say something else in regards to architecture. I worked in a high rise office building in Sacramento for 3 months. TOTALLY ASSINE. Couldn't open ONE window in the whole damn 20 story building. What kind of fucking drugs was this architect on? Within a year of opening, over 500 people had become ill because of the design of the building, forced the nature of the HVAC, curtain walls, and working spaces. Fuck. There should be a law. Architects should be required to WORK in their dumb ass buildings for a 6 month before a certificate of occupancy is issued. Design indeed. Kiss my ass. How many people died because of the design of a building. Lord only knows.
And how bout city planners. There's an oxymoron if I've ever heard one.
One other thing. I asked an architect who designed a local high end boutique restaurant, what methodology he use in designing the commercial kitchen. Thats easy he said. He learned to cook the menu. Now there is a brilliant thought. By the way Shane, do you EVEN record?

So, I hope this illustrates what I DON"T hate. What I do dispise, is people who think that just because they have a few years of education in architecture, they have the expertise to design the complete hiarchy of thier design. And the right to talk down to the people that GIVE them the knowledge via documents, that make their complete document package look as though they did it all themself. And I've had MORE than my share of those assholes. Take a look at ANY bid package to the trades and you will find this statement. SHOP DRAWINGS will be submitted to the architect for approval. And do you REALLY think that the architects write specification books by inventing THEM. Ha! My ass. How the hell do you think they learn how this stuff is done. Make me puke. Why do you think the Masons had secret associations. To this day. The history of construction idea thievery is from the time of the Pyramids. Not only that, but without the slavery, they wouldn't have been built. It may not be slavery today, but compared to the same hour of work a tradesworker gets, an architect is WAY overpaid. Just because he spent a few years getting an education, a tradesworker works the same amount of time to gain the skills to work that SAME hour. So you tell me.
Like my dad says, "a doctors mercedes engine rebuild will cost him the same hourly rate that the doctor gets. PERIOD, or I won't do it. AND he has to make an appointment with me.!" He rebuillt a lot of em. And farraris. And Corvettes. You name it, he rebuilt em cause he was the best. Now he builds aircraft for doctors.
Time marches on. I'm 59 yrs old, newly moved to a place where work as a CAD draftsman is hard to come by, at least in my area of expertize. I've found a job at a high end cabinet and millwork shop, that is the only one on the coast of Oregon, steeped and tooled to do the type of woodworking we do. Since I've been working there, I have met no less than 6 architects, who specialize in EXPENSIVE homes. I'm talking million dollar homes. You would think that someone who is educated in architecture would have some kind of clue as to what a customer wants, and willing to listen to their wishes. Ha! Couldn't be farther from the truth. Not only do we deal with the architect, we deal with the client. Without fail, the client comes in and tells us to IGNOR the kitchen that the architect has drawn. They show us the SAME pictures that they show the architect, and I just have to wonder where the fuck the architects head was. Then WE design it. Never fails. They love it. Cause we LISTEN. We give them the solutions to what they need. Not delusions of granduer and preposterous design that solves nothing. One architect proposed putting the refridgerator in another room, cause it just didn't FIT IN to his design. Give me a fucking break. We simply suggested another brand of fridge called Sub Zero that allows you to put any cabinetry panels ON the fridge, doors and sides. Looks like part of the cabinetry. Came out great and the customer loved it. But that is not the issue. What is, is how the architect comes across. Without fail, like a prick. FUCK THEM. No, I don't hate all architects. Only the ones that think thier shit doesn't stink. I got news for them. They have an asshole just like me. And I won't put up with them ever again, job or no job. They can go fuck themself.

fitZXarchitecturelover
 
Wow that was almost a life story :)

You used to live in Cali huh?


The next time an Architect tells you something won't work according to his/her plan, just respond with "Your new at this aren't you?" That will slow em done enough and puts a smile on my face. We have all these Quadrant homes going in all over the Seattle area. Fricking hilarious to me. They talk about efficiency....My left buttock. The layouts may seem nice for space allocation and HVAC but the living spaces are all messed up. Oh..you want to put furniture in my house? IM sorry thats not part of the design ;) I was a better designer in high school than a majority of the stuff I see now days. Oh well. Hang in there Rick. Being left handed my spatial skills are legendary where I work . :) :) :). Too bad a I suck at what I'd really like to do.:mad:

Peace,
SoMm
 
Okay, now that the architect bashing has been presented (no offense, Rick), I just wanted to point out that this guy is a student, trying to learn what he hopes will be an honorable profession, and he's interested in designing recording studios. That's what this forum is supposed to be about, right? Sure, the stuff he's doing doesn't fit with the "home recording" mentality, but what about the rooms he has designed? Do the spaces have the proper acoustical design to provide flexible recording environments? Give the kid a break and give him opinions about the design aspects he's presented, not a blast about the foibles of architects in general.

Sorry, but the ranting kind of got to me. I can relate to his plight. He's trying to finish up school and has a project that requires a survey of opinions from people who have varying levels of experience with studio design, so he's just seeking people's input. Plain and simple.

Personally, I'd love to have the chance to see how those rooms would sound. One room seemed more practical than the other, but I liked the changeable nature of that one. On the other hand, I'd just love to have a room half that size for my own studio!!

Darryl.....
 
Wow Rick. I agree with a lot of what you say.

Unfortunately, the fastfood/cookie cutter thing has really taken over in electrical construction as well. We used to teach guys how to bend conduit. Not anymore. Seems everything is becoming MC cable. It's pretty sorry when you take a code update class and they spend time going over how many MC cables you can tie in a bundle with Ty-Wraps.

I guess if I had to choose I'd say I prefer architects over project managers and supts. Those guys, from my experience, are the guys that are either too lame to actually build stuff themselves, or they're really good bullshit artists that NEVER miss an opportunity to blame somebody when when things go to shit. Oh, and they're also really well versed at telling YOU how long shit should take to get done, even if they've never done it before.

Those are the guys I deal with on a much more regular basis.

You know, the guy that's the pm because he's the son-in-law of the contractor.

I can't tell you how many guys I have worked for that have run jobs that lost literally millions of dollars, but the contractor keeps that guy in the driver's seat. One GF I worked for in CA had a laborer killed (it was the guy's first day on the job, and they had him sawcut into a live vault. Not good.), then lost over $3MILLION building Children's Hospital in Orange, CA. When that fiasco was finished, that same guy was off to run another hospital for the company. How do these guys do it? IHNFI.

As far as the designs presented here........... fuck, I've never been in a studio of that level.

The closest might be the JBL Theatre at Experience Music Project. It's not a studio per se, but a very well designed and great sounding room nontheless.
 
Darryl, although I agree with most of what you said, and can also identify with 98% of what Rick said, it could also be said that Shane got a bit of "real world" education by the varied comments as well - as in, you're not always gonna get what you expect and should be prepared for that.

Shane, I'm pretty buried right now (partly because my main obligation in this area, John Sayers' site, is now on a faster, stateside server under Slackmaster so there's little or no downtime and more speed (meaning, no more little "mini-vacations") - add to that a never-ending project list and unseasonably nice weather, and it limits my online time even more, but I'm planning on taking a closer look at your designs as time permits -

Do you have any particular time constraints on this project? If so, please say so and I'll try to get to it sooner, but no promises. What little I had a chance to check out looked interesting - have you by any chance been reading any of Phillip Newell's books?

Sorry if you got a bit overloaded by some of our responses, but what I said is as good an explanation as any - if you're going to be working with people, you should probably expect things like this. Then, if you get lucky, they WON'T happen and you can just do what you studied to do.

I gotta admit, though, the idiot that put the refrigerator in another room because it "didn't FIT IN to his design" really made me laugh... Steve
 
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