Recording piano in my salon

haveri321

New member
Hello,

I would like to record my a piano which is located in my salon, attached to a wall from behind and to a window from the side.
My question is whether I can still mix the outcome and get a good result even though it's not recorded in a studio.
Should I just use a condenser to record?
What do you suggest?

Thanks a lot in advance and sorry about my English :-)
 
Hello,

I would like to record my a piano which is located in my salon, attached to a wall from behind and to a window from the side.
My question is whether I can still mix the outcome and get a good result even though it's not recorded in a studio.
Should I just use a condenser to record?
What do you suggest?

Thanks a lot in advance and sorry about my English :-)

How does the piano sound in the salon? What are you planning to use the recording for?
 
It sounds quite heavy, with space and ambiance, I think it's mostly because of its type - Red October.
It's for the use of music for films, and also for accompanying my singing. Its function is very dominant in the recordings because there are no other instruments, beside singings, and sometimes if it's for film music, it's solo piano.

Thanks again
 
No - I think he means what does the piano sound like in the room, to your ears? If it sounds good in the room, then it will record fine. Stereo miking is the norm for recordings, but much depends on the piano - if it's an upright, you have the option of opening the lid, or recording from the rear so the soundboard component is more prominent, and some uprights sound better recorded with the front completely off - which brightens it up but reveals more of the mechanics noises, like a grand. If it is a grand, then you have closed lid and the short and long stick open lid to cope with. Somewhere, will be the sound you want. Find it with your ears and try your mic there. Condensers are the usual mic because of all the extended harmonics that don't get captured that well by dynamics.

If you want to be recorded singing while playing, then it gets harder, but can still be done - Is it an upright, and if so - old style or modern small style?
 
Yeah, if the room sounds good as is, then no need for the next questions about room dimensions and makeup. Positioning the piano in the room, depending on upright or grand is another consideration right off the bat.

If it is a small space unlikely it will sound great as is. But with a medium to large room, you might get lucky, despite no acoustic consideration prior in the space.

Obviously also is it needs to be a well tuned and well maintained piano, it will be obviously a losing battle otherwise.

As we speak I am procrastinating on doing the voicing on my piano, it has been a long time, although tuned regularly. I have been under no false prenences that I will not get the sound I want from tracking without addressing this first. I am just being lazy about it as i know there are deep string grooves and I was hoping an easy steam method was going to come to mind even after doing it in the past fairly easily with a heated soldering iron and spray bottle to puff up the felts before filing. Was thinking a cool little clothing steamer might work with the right nozzle. Still dreaming of a simple cheap solution that wouldn't require a soldering iron or an external heating element.

Anyways, let us know the type of piano, condition, sound in the room as is, and the if not great sound room dimensions and make up of major structures etc...
 
Again, to add on the type of piano and conditions, an LDC can be certainly utilized, positioning is important but depends on piano type and if this is your only mic source. I would use at least a stereo pair, not to say a mono piano recording can't be good, but a stereo image is going to yield something potentially better. If u have a stereo pair and the LDC you can potentially do very well. If you let us know the style of music too, classical, jazz, etc... this will potentially dictate a tight mic position for attack and less vocal bleed or backed off for more room and natural reverb.

I assume recording the vocal independently?
 
Thanks a lot for all of your answers

The pinao is upright and the room is big, but I think that that piano itself produces a heavy sound with a lot of ambiance. So because there is already the reverb of the room, it's more like 'take it or leave it' ? I should record without adding dynamics and effects afterwards?

And as for the singing, I was thinking of recording vocals seprately. This is how it's usually done in a studio, right?

Thanks again!
 
In a controlled environment you could have the choice of doing it either way (Live vs overdubbing) but where acoustics and positioning are an issue I'd be inclined to get the best possible piano sound, and take, that you can then worry about vocals afterwards.

Compression and effects are down to taste and what you want to hear, but generally speaking I wouldn't be using much compression on the keys if the mix is simply piano and vocal.
It might be a different story if the piano is contributing to a built up mix.
Again, the most common answer is "It depends". ;)

Hope that helps.
 
Well the singing overdubbed will obviously work. I however, would usually do it together. There are good ways to get decent isolation during tracking for just vocal and piano and to me usually their is an interactive quality that is very important in piano vocal setting, but depends on your music style. I doubt any jazz or classical player would go for it, or they would certainly feel out their element. When I do jazz group w/ singer, I either do the vocal tracking simultaneously with make shift methods of isolation or in total isolation from other instruments, but don't overdub as it is just to unnatural to do with this music.

Again, best piano sound will depend on your room, so experiment with placement of the mics, from distant to more close mics. If there is a singer you might need to compromise for closer placement. If the room sound is not acceptable, you are forced to really go the Jazz route and mic close to the hammers as main track. It can also get a very nice sound, but not the natural spread and reverb u might capture, but thats not there to be had if room is not good. You might consider a Gobo style barrier between the singer and piano and one of those stand mounted vocal isolation mounted contraptions. Distance miking has advantages, but none if acoustics bad and that is harder to overcome post process than adding fake reverb to something close miked. Also it will expose the noise floor in cheaper mics and i your preamps, as you will need to add more gain, so if your gear is not up to par it will introduce problems with noise.

Upright try both from the top with the top open and from behind the soundboard, for up close.

I record mostly jazz these days and I do the up close, but also a stereo ribbon maybe 2-3 ft above the open lid. Not distance mics, but I get a bit more body and of course, room, and in case drums, bass, but it sort of functions as a room mic too.

and some light EQ may be in order, depending on your mics, and the qualities of your piano. For example, my ribbons, usually need a slight boost in highs, very slight (typical with ribbons) and my SDCs often need a bit of hi gain reduction but again vey slight. Compression, similar, depends on the setting, if the piano is solo or is playing the bass lines in the piece, very very little if at all. If in a mix with other instruments, I do usually do a little. This is acoustic piano, so keep it natural and try to embrace the upright characteristics instead of EQing to make it sound like a Grand. Some prefer tracking with top uprights. Use your ears too, stand at varying distances/positions, how does it sound, muddy, boomy, distorted, ringing. Hope fully your gear will capture how it naturally sounded and in this case hopefully u will like how it naturally sounded.
 
I'm curious about those piano pickups too if you've used them Greg. FYI, I've used Fishman piano pick ups in the past (for live, not recording) and really REALLY disliked the sound. I had to EQ the hell out of it to make it sound like anything more than one of those toy pianos. If the Helpinstill is better, it would be useful to know.

As for the OP, you're probably already getting the idea that there are a ton of different ways to mic an upright piano (I'm assuming upright from your reference to it being against a wall.

The two main methods to consider are moving the piano out from the wall and putting the mics behind the sound board about a foot (30 cm) away. Ideally you'll use a pair of the same model of mic and do the piano in stereo. Start with each mic about 1/3 of the way in from either side, with the treble end a bit lower than the mic at the bass end. Play with lots of little movements in the position because these can make a big difference to the sound. If you can't use two mics, use your single condenser about 30-45cm away in the middle of the back. Again, move the mic back and forth and up and down until you're happy with the sound--position is even more critical with a single mic since you can't change the balance once it's recorded.

If you can't move the piano away from the wall, then open the lid and, again, try to use to matched mics just above the top opening. This will give a sharper, more percussive sound which may or may not be what you want. Again, play with small moves in position to get a sound you like. Similar to miking at the back, if you only have a single, move the mic slightly farther up and (again) be super critical with the positioning to get a balance you like.

(But you're going to get hundreds of different suggestions. These are just mine!)
 
Yeah, the similar styled PU approach worked, found the boundary mics on a make shift board in stereo at the sound board was a better option for a while, and recently ended up going back to stereo SDCs and happy I went back for the up close miking. I pretty much always blend it with a stereo set further back or above to catch more body and room sound, even with jazz and ensemble.

In terms of this thread, again I am still not sure about the style of music you are doing. Is it classical intimate styled or jazzy or something else?
 
No, I've never personally used the Helpinstill pickups. I record piano about as much as I record acoustic guitar - which is never.

I've heard them in action though both live and on recordings many times, and to me they are bad ass. The inventor, Charles Helpinstill, is a local legend that goes by the stage name Ezra Charles. Elton John uses those piano pickups, so I just assume they're probably good enough for anyone in here.
 
Elton was using it live or in the studio?

For Liv sure, certainly the positioning etc... makes it ideal for live work. Studio recording maybe not so optimal. Similar to the BArcusBerry and the ATsomething piano mic/PU. Looks like an interesting design, I like the concept.
 
I have no idea how Elton John uses them. I'm no Elton John fan. I just know he uses them in some capacity. It really makes no difference to me. I have no financial interest in the Helpinstill pickups. I was just throwing an idea out there.
 
No sir Elton here either, but thanks for posting anyways, they foo look like a very viable live option and as I mostly record jazz it I appreciate the mention.
 
I don't much about most things, but I have to say the recommendation for the pickups seems like a viable option. Until the post, I didn't even know they made such a thing.

If you have a four channel, you mic it and use the pickups, give it a blend.
 
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