Recording Heavy Metal Guitars?

[keepitwolf]

Hello everyone. I need some advice on recording guitars with heavy distortions. I'm covering a system of a Down song and the guitars just don't sound good. I kind of winged it when recording the guitars and didn't research how to best set up an amp and microphone for this kind of recording. The results speak for themselves. I'm using an EVH 5151 III combo and an SM57. I know a lot of people like to set up multiple microphones when recording guitars but I only have one. Any advice on microphone placement and EQ settings as well as anything else would be greatly appreciated. I understand the basics of EQ and compression in post I just want some advice on the recording. This is being recorded in my bedroom so there's not a lot I can do about the acoustics other than where I place in the amp in the room. Cheers mates.

 

[keepitwolf]

Sorry slight Typo. The amps a EVH 5150 III combo.

 

[ecc83]

There was a series of serious articles in Sound on Sound about this about a year ago. I shall see if I can find you a link.

Making Modern Metal: Part 1

There ^ yous goes.

Dave.

 

[VomitHatSteve]

There's a few general rules to keep in mind when recording heavy guitars:
1 - Tone is in the hands. A lot of your sound is going to come from your ability to play it, so get really practiced up first.
2. You probably need less gain than you think.

Without hearing a sample of your results, it's gonna be hard to get much more specific.

 

[Massive Master]

Amen on "less gain." Good lord, "chunky" and "crunchy" are NOT "fuzzy" and everyone seems to think the pre-gain needs to be all the way up. Then they suck out all the mids. Guitars are damn near *all* mids.

 

[Farview]

Turn the gain to a point where it is crunchy, not fuzzy.

Aim the Mic at the point where the dust cap meets the cone of the speaker

Record two performances, pan them away from each other.

Add the high end in the mix, not at the amp.

Remember that the bass guitar is a large part of the sound of those sort of productions. Most of the time, the bass is distorted too.

Search YouTube for isolated guitar and bass tracks of songs in that genre. That might help you get an idea of what the individual instruments need to sound like.

 

[ecc83]

Hi Jay, I am pretty sure that link I gave has some recording examples?

Dave.

 

[Ujn Hunter]

All good points. Use much less gain than you think you should (especially when doubling or quad tracking or whatever... all that gain adds up...) and make sure your parts are as tight as possible when double tracking. Maybe get a loop pedal so you can move the mic around until you get the sound you want without having to play and move the mic at the same time...

 

[Guitargodgt]

An example of what you got would help.

I'm also inexperienced with the G12M speaker and it's voicing. Most of the guys I know who record the 5150III are using vintage 30 speakers including myself.

So starting from that point I'll give my pointers anyway:

1. Generally I highpass around 60hz and lowpass around 12kHz. There just isn't that much usable frequency information in those areas. Some people will carve out more or less but it's around these areas that I start to find the frequencies useless.

2. On the amp's the eq section start with the knobs at 1 o clock (bass mid and treb). The 5150 is one of the rarer high gain amps that I find has some honky mids but that doesn't mean scoop them (scooped mids are terrible. Smiley face eq settings are trash). Usually I end up with the mids around 1 or 2 o clock, the bass at 9 or 10 o clock and the treble at noon or 1 o clock.

3. The 5150 is really good with a boost, specifically a tubescreamer. If you have one or something similar like a boss super overdrive you can give it a go. The way you would set things on the tubescreamer is tone around noon, drive all the way down, and volume all the way up or near all the way up. You would then set the gain on the 5150 to where it just starts to slightly crunch and then turn on the tubescreamer and you should be where you need to be.

4. The 57 is a great mic for this honestly. Since I'm not totally familiar with the speakers in the combo I'll give my advice for vintage 30s but just know it's possible I would do it different on the G12m speakers since they are likely voiced different. Start by pointing the mic at the area where the dustcap meets the cone. This is basically about 1-2" from center on most speakers. Point it dead on, don't angle it.

 

[Seventh Son]

I use a Marshall DSL15C for recording at home, but I am sure my advice will apply to all other tube amps, as well.

The most important thing is volume. Find out where your amp sounds best. Set up an SM57, on the dust cap edge, an inch from the grille cloth. Record the same riff with volume at 1, 3, 5, 7, 8, 9, and 10, making sure the input level on your interface is the same for all takes, so that all tracks in the DAW are of roughly same height and, hence, loudness (makes comparison more straightforward, so there's less work trying to volume-match them later). Finally, listen to the recording and decide where the sweet spot is. Check with headphones, as they are more revealing than speakers. Most likely, the sweet spot be in a range that's too loud for your neighbors, if you have neighbors. The goal is to get as close as you can afford without getting the police called on you. Volume is really the most important thing. As long as you have a decent interface and an SM57, mic placement, amp placement in the room, room acoustics, etc., will all have a subtle effect not worth sweating over in the beginning. First get the basics right. Later you can experiment with subtle nuances for artistic purposes.

If you are like most of us home recordists, most likely you'll run into the problem of thin, fizzy guitars. I have been grappling with this problem for years, and still no solution in sight. My current theory is that it is just due to the nature of how a speaker sounds up-close versus how the amp sounds from our listening position, once the sound has traveled through the air and been attenuated in the high-end and compressed by the air. I suppose the only solution to getting natural sounding heavy guitars is to recording with a combination of close mic and room mic. I have tried everything else (amp positioning, mic placement, volume setting, gain setting), but to no avail. You could try some extreme EQ settings on your amp, but I would not advise to go that route. If you can't get a good recorded tone with all EQ at noon, the issue is not EQ, but rather something else.

 

[Guitargodgt]

If you are like most of us home recordists, most likely you'll run into the problem of thin, fizzy guitars. I have been grappling with this problem for years, and still no solution in sight. My current theory is that it is just due to the nature of how a speaker sounds up-close versus how the amp sounds from our listening position, once the sound has traveled through the air and been attenuated in the high-end and compressed by the air. I suppose the only solution to getting natural sounding heavy guitars is to recording with a combination of close mic and room mic. I have tried everything else (amp positioning, mic placement, volume setting, gain setting), but to no avail. You could try some extreme EQ settings on your amp, but I would not advise to go that route. If you can't get a good recorded tone with all EQ at noon, the issue is not EQ, but rather something else.

I suggest you give a new speaker a try if this is what you are running into.

 

[ecc83]

I use a Marshall DSL15C for recording at home, but I am sure my advice will apply to all other tube amps, as well.

The most important thing is volume. Find out where your amp sounds best. Set up an SM57, on the dust cap edge, an inch from the grille cloth. Record the same riff with volume at 1, 3, 5, 7, 8, 9, and 10, making sure the input level on your interface is the same for all takes, so that all tracks in the DAW are of roughly same height and, hence, loudness (makes comparison more straightforward, so there's less work trying to volume-match them later). Finally, listen to the recording and decide where the sweet spot is. Check with headphones, as they are more revealing than speakers. Most likely, the sweet spot be in a range that's too loud for your neighbors, if you have neighbors. The goal is to get as close as you can afford without getting the police called on you. Volume is really the most important thing. As long as you have a decent interface and an SM57, mic placement, amp placement in the room, room acoustics, etc., will all have a subtle effect not worth sweating over in the beginning. First get the basics right. Later you can experiment with subtle nuances for artistic purposes.

If you are like most of us home recordists, most likely you'll run into the problem of thin, fizzy guitars. I have been grappling with this problem for years, and still no solution in sight. My current theory is that it is just due to the nature of how a speaker sounds up-close versus how the amp sounds from our listening position, once the sound has traveled through the air and been attenuated in the high-end and compressed by the air. I suppose the only solution to getting natural sounding heavy guitars is to recording with a combination of close mic and room mic. I have tried everything else (amp positioning, mic placement, volume setting, gain setting), but to no avail. You could try some extreme EQ settings on your amp, but I would not advise to go that route. If you can't get a good recorded tone with all EQ at noon, the issue is not EQ, but rather something else.

Couple of wrong assumptons there Seventh if I may say so?

Whilst it is true that HF is attenuated by its travel through air you need a hell of a lot of it to make a difference! Even the largest room would not make much difference (and it is water vapour that does the attenuating) Speakers might sound dimmer at a distance but that is because you are hearing the 'room' and all rooms absorb HF preferrentially to LF or mids.

Then, air does not compress sound. That would indicate non-linear behaviour and air is perfectly linear up SPLs below those found near high explosives.

And finally, do not assume when a guitar amp's tone knobs are "at noon" you are getting a flat response like a hi fi pre amp. A very interesting prog' is *duncan amps tonestack calculator"

Been years since I recorded an amp (for son) and I was never that good at it so I offer no advice on that score but, Physics is Physics!

Dave.

 

[Seventh Son]

Couple of wrong assumptons there Seventh if I may say so?

Whilst it is true that HF is attenuated by its travel through air you need a hell of a lot of it to make a difference! Even the largest room would not make much difference (and it is water vapour that does the attenuating) Speakers might sound dimmer at a distance but that is because you are hearing the 'room' and all rooms absorb HF preferrentially to LF or mids.

Then, air does not compress sound. That would indicate non-linear behaviour and air is perfectly linear up SPLs below those found near high explosives.

And finally, do not assume when a guitar amp's tone knobs are "at noon" you are getting a flat response like a hi fi pre amp. A very interesting prog' is *duncan amps tonestack calculator"

Been years since I recorded an amp (for son) and I was never that good at it so I offer no advice on that score but, Physics is Physics!

Dave.

Thank you. This is really good to know, and I am glad you clarified it to explain what actually causes the HF attenuation.

I was aware that all EQ at noon does not equal flat response. I think I read somewhere that something like Bass 1, Middle 9, and Treble 0 would give you a roughly flat response. Anyway, don't mean to digress, as this is about recording. Hopefully someone else can offer advice on whether it is actually possible to record distorted guitar with close-mics and not have that nasty fizz on the raw tracks. I get great sounding tracks with a distant mic, about six feet from the amp, roughly at ear level. It's a world of a difference compared to close-miking.

 

[Farview]

If you close Mic an amp with a 57 and you are getting a nasty sound no matter where you put the Mic, that nasty sound is how you dialed in your amp.

Dial in the sound of the amp while listening through the Mic. On a recording, it doesn't matter what the amp so unds like in the room, it only matters what the Mic hears.

Even in a live setting, the audience is listening to the amp through a microphone placed on the cabinet. It's a good idea to get the tone right for the mic and not worry about what it sounds like 5 feet away at ear level.

 

[Seventh Son]

If you close Mic an amp with a 57 and you are getting a nasty sound no matter where you put the Mic, that nasty sound is how you dialed in your amp.

Dial in the sound of the amp while listening through the Mic. On a recording, it doesn't matter what the amp so unds like in the room, it only matters what the Mic hears.

Even in a live setting, the audience is listening to the amp through a microphone placed on the cabinet. It's a good idea to get the tone right for the mic and not worry about what it sounds like 5 feet away at ear level.

I've tried this before, but ran into problems with getting too dull a sound after lowering Bass, Treble, and Presence to almost nothing, while still not having enough midrange. Overall, it sounded O.K. if I pushed the controls, but not nearly as natural as distance-miking. But as always, YMMV.

 

[Farview]

I've tried this before, but ran into problems with getting too dull a sound after lowering Bass, Treble, and Presence to almost nothing, while still not having enough midrange. Overall, it sounded O.K. if I pushed the controls, but not nearly as natural as distance-miking. But as always, YMMV.

It sounds like you might have the wrong amp for what you are trying to do. The overwhelming majority of guitars you hear are close miced, it's the standard setup.

 

[LazerBeakShiek]

Are you trying to capture the close and far away sound? Surprising how a room mic or a little distance between can add some space.

I was watching a video where the guy was using bone conducting transducers and using wood and metal surfaces as homemade simplified plate reverbs. Then mixing back the original sound, with a sheet metal plate or oak door. Trying to convince me every type of wood has a specific sound and that resonance of the woods' escence can be mixed back in. Bone transducers and barker surface mount microphones. I need to stay away from youtube.

 

[ecc83]

Are you trying to capture the close and far away sound? Surprising how a room mic or a little distance between can add some space.

I was watching a video where the guy was using bone conducting transducers and using wood and metal surfaces as homemade simplified plate reverbs. Then mixing back the original sound, with a sheet metal plate or oak door. Trying to convince me every type of wood has a specific sound and that resonance of the woods' escence can be mixed back in. Bone transducers and barker surface mount microphones. I need to stay away from youtube.

There is perhaps a grain of true in this? Luthiers and fiddle makers select woods by tapping the planks. There is a general concensus among guitar platers that MDF cabs are 'dead' and non-resonant* but plywood 'moves' and adds pleasing colour to the sound. Ply is of course much tougher than MDF and less dense and is to be preferred on those two grounds anyway.

It is instructive to stand next to a 240W 4x12 with deffs on whilst someone gives it very large with a 200W amplifier as I have done (but not for long!) You can hear the cab grunting and groaning, sounds you don't hear in the room consiously or via a mic.

I do agree BTW that "fizz" should not be a problem with a close micc'ed speaker. If it is the speaker or amp or both are ***t.

*Which of course makes it the preferred material for hi fi speakers and monitors.

Dave.

 

[Seventh Son]

I do agree BTW that "fizz" should not be a problem with a close micc'ed speaker. If it is the speaker or amp or both are ***t.

Dave.

So, you are saying, IF the speaker, or amp, or both, are crap, THEN you will get fizz from close-miking. Fair enough. But what if both amp and speaker are not crap, but you still get fizz? Then what? Regarding the amp, I've tried the DSL15C, the DSL20CR, and the 6100LM. You could potentially find fault with the DSLs, but the 6100LM was at one point Marshall's flagship and the amp Jim Marshall called the best amp Marshall has ever built. Hyperbole aside, the 6100LM is a pro-level amp, no matter how you look at it. Many of the guys over at Marshallforum.com swear by it. On the subject of speakers, my DSL15C and DSL20CR are equipped with the Vintage 30 and G12T-75, respectively, and my MX112 cab has a Vintage 30 in it. In addition, I have also tried the Seventy 80 and the G12E-60 that the DSLs came with stock. Again, you could pick on the stock speakers, but the Vintage 30 and G12T-75 are some of the best standard guitar speakers money can buy. What to make of it now?

 

[LazerBeakShiek]

Surely he didnt want to insult your amp. Its fine . Trust me.

I wouldnt put any credence in a youtube instructional video, unless you are at the beginning. Once you know what and where the HPF,LPF go, it gets easier. Study gates, compressors, or perhaps a 4 pole filter for how to balance it all on the head of a pin. Once you know what those sound like , then ask 'what don't I know? People should be able to tell what you don't know by your mix sample. Please post a sample,no shame in that. Dont forget to let it rip.

I wanted it to be truly plug and play to record my guitar, it turns out there are a lot of dirty tricks. And that full direct guitar sound isnt really so full. Went back to 1/4 " tape to figure that out. The tape head might actually let more signal/slew/dynamic in at one time.