Recording guitars questions...

Zombre

Zombre

New member
lol, I'll probably get eaten alive for this, but what the heck! You guys need to eat, too!

http://www.netmusicians.org/index.php?section=id&value=6578

So anyways, I recorded a few tracks over a quick backtrack I made. I own a few pods, an Axe-FX and of course all of the cool plugins that come with Logic 9. At the end of the day, I hate 'em all and I want to just play my amp. Seriously, I hate that 'direct-in' feel, and I feel like the direct in/modeller approach has been kicked out of my plane of interest.

Anyways... The above clip is a YJM Strat into a Marshall JVM head through a Marshall 1960AV 4x12. The left corner speaker seemed to sound the best, so I went with that one. Don't ask how I came up with that conclusion, lol I literally just recorded every speaker in roughly the same position, and voila... that was my favorite. Oh yeah, I used a Sennheiser E906..

Now unfortunately, I had to keep the volume down, and record in the same room as the amp with headphones. This means the trim was cranked on my Presonus Firestudio 'Project' and as a result seems a bit hissy.

Now for the questions:

Seems that I gotta keep that trim down on my interface and get the amp louder to avoid that ambient sort of hiss... But how loud is too loud?
I want good recordings, but I don't want to kill anyone, lol...

Also, would it be a good idea to layer it with multiple tracks of different tones and different gain levels? At what point does this start interfering with the other instruments?

Thanks in advance for ANY input you can give me...
 
Hey man, real nice playing!

But ez's right. You gotta crank that baby. High gain amps sound real different to your ears standing back in a room than they do to mic pushed right up on the grill. All that preamp gain sounds like so much sizzle up close.

When you crank it up you get the power tubes more involved and you can bring the preamp gain down some. You'll get a much thicker, meatier tone.

And even if you don't bring the preamp gain down, it'll still sound better cranked up. I was just tracking with my amp tonight--my gain was on 8, my volume was on 1. Sounded real thin. Now tomorrow, when the house is empty, I'm gonna do the same thing with my volume on 4 or 5 (and of course my mic preamps will be dialed way back). Even if I leave my gain on 8, it'll sound completely different--tons more tone and bottom end.
 
Yeah I figured as much. I'm thinking I'm gonna try a couple of things tomorrow!

1)Drop the preamp gain a bucketload; just seems sort of furry...

2)I'm gonna turn it up substantially...

3)Mic's gonna come away from the speaker about 3 inches or so...


Thanks for the feedback, dudes!
 
Yeah, playing with mic placement is huge--besides your guitar and amp, it's probably the biggest/most important way to affect your recorded tone. You'll notice that as you move it away from the amp (even a couple inches) you're gonna lose some attack and bottom end. So it's a compromise.

Another thing I find is that for recording, I dial in a much more midrangey sound than I might just for jamming. When I'm just jamming, I like this broad (even scooped, sometimes) sound that covers everything from lows to highs. But I find that in a fairly full mix (like that track you posted) a lot of the lows and real highs either get lost or get in the way of other stuff in the mix. But a midrange-heavy tone often finds its place in the mix better.

One more thought--lots of guys will say to dial back the gain--and it sounds like you're ready to give that a try. I say it as well. Especially for rhythm tracks, I'll have the gain as much as half as what sounds good to my ears when I'm just jamming. I get the big ballsy sound by double tracking and having the right tone.

But I also find that dialing back the gain often leaves me wanting when it comes to leads. I depend on that saturated sustain for how I play--when I dial the gain back too much, I lose the fluid feel and end up with a sharper, more staccato sound--often what I don't want.

So again, it's a compromise. I tame the sizzle by bringing the gain back some, but not nearly as much as with rhythms. I then move the mic further away from the center of the speaker to tame more of the sizzle. I smooth it out with a touch of chorus and delay (yes, I'm a musical child of the 80's!). Last but not least, I play with some compression--compression is a major function of high gain, and using a compressor can add back some sustain and fluidity in the absence of sizzly gain.

Just some of what I do to keep my lead tone. They're just ideas though--as you've obviously figured out--you gotta play with it and see what works for you. Have fun! And post some samples if you like. I'd love to hear your results.
 
Whitestrat; thanks so much for your reply! Taking the time to put down even just a little bit of info like this is sooo helpful.

Just messing around this morning, and increased volume alone along with backing the mic off is supremely helpful. I mean, on that first track I posted, I had to increase the gain by 6db in Logic just so I could HEAR the damn thing! And that's with the interface trim all the way up. duhhhh I wonder why it was hissy... lol Also, I think I was getting some bizarre unwanted distortion on top of the already gainy tone.

The other factor is of course, the Stratocaster I use is not easy to play, nor does it have very nice pickups. It's a Malmsteen Strat, and why that guy plays these I'll never know. I mean, it's a guitar I sort of got 'addicted' to, but man it's a lot of work! Vibrato's a cinch, and so's bending because of the scalloped neck, but everything else is a bit of a chore!

Getting the gain down has helped a lot; I'm going for a clean, yet clanky/almost squeaky tone and it's getting there. lol For my leads I'll probably back (gain) it off a bit, up the mids and drop bass and treb as I'm not sure that the 'settings' I have are really adding anything truly audible that's good to the sound. And I'm STILL happier micing it than using a Line6 Pod or an AxeFx or any of the many plugins at my disposal.

I'll post my clips as I go...

So many things to try, so little time.
 
http://www.netmusicians.org/index.php?section=id&value=6580

OK, so I tried mucking with it a bunch, and here's my results... The lower gain track definitely spits a lot less, and in my mind is way punchier on all levels.
I'm gonna try and see what happens at a really loud level just for kicks a bit later this week. Stylistically I do a lot of different things, and I'd like to get a consistent 'tone' happening for them all.

Sure is amazing how recording miced with a real amp and all of the mistakes, inconsistencies and thwaps all come out. No wonder people love amp modellers...


Yeesh. I still gotta get something resembling a tone for drums and bass yet! hahaha Ahhh well, baby steps.
 
When recording guitar I think as you realized that you need less gain than you think. Your are probably standing next to your amp (off axis and above it enough that you are not hearing the in your face sound like the mic is hearing. Is Mic placement off axis or centered on cone.

Regarding compromise if moving the mic back and losing some bass due to proximity effect. Can you track two at once. One close dynamic mic, one condensor further back.
 
Zombre said:
But how loud is too loud?
Click to expand...

Let's just say that I have recorded guitar tracks where I would become physically ill if I even walked into the room with the guitar cabinet. So... too loud to allow for the existence of human life is not too loud for recording guitar.
 
Chibi Nappa said:
Let's just say that I have recorded guitar tracks where I would become physically ill if I even walked into the room with the guitar cabinet. So... too loud to allow for the existence of human life is not too loud for recording guitar.
Click to expand...

A fellow Mesa nut/studio engineer I know was once telling me he actually managed to clip a SM57 close-mic'd on a Triple Recto running wide open. That's about the only time I've ever heard of a source actually being too loud to record, and even then part of me has to wonder if maybe there was just something wrong with the mic - I wouldn't have thought it was possible to overdrive a SM57. :p
 
Yo Zombie! Any mic can be overloaded by *something*. Crank the amp, and *be in a different room*. It makes a kind of tight sound, but an iso box can help. I built mine big- so I can put a combo amp in it, or an extension speaker. Sorry, no half-stacks. BTW, I think your clip's bass track rocks. Please describe how that was done. I know you love your amp, and your sound, but I believe you would benefit from getting a smaller amp. In big studios, you may have a "B" or "C" room to stick a 4X12 in and crank it up, but in smaller facilities, smaller amps and improved isolation allow small amps to be cranked up without creating lethal volumes. In the setup you are describing, the headphones are more useful for *protection* than hearing guide tracks!

For a different perspective on the sound your amp is really making, try this- can you get a +4 line out direct from the head? Worst case scenario, you can use a headphone out. Disable or disconnect the cab. Turn all levels to nada, and jack that line out into any decent powered studio monitor (I use a sub also). Then select a condenser. I like AKG C2000B, but whatever all-purpose condenser you have will work-C414, KSM44, AT4050, etc. Then crank the amp and turn the monitors up a little until you are at a comfortable home stereo level for someone who doesn't use ecstasy. Then record it, and play it back as loud as you want. Just let me put on shooting headgear and step out of the room first! This will give you a whole new perspective on the personalities of speakers, cabinets, *and* the dynamic mics we most often record electric guitars with. The same thing works well with modelers also. In live mode, you would disable the cab model on a POD, because you have real cabs. Using a monitor, I turn the cab model on, and an honest mic, preamp, and speaker gives a more honest rendering of both amp and cab models. It will reveal the signal you're really making, whatever it is, modeled or not.

The Holy Grail is to convince that condenser that the monitor is a combo amp cranked up like a mother, but you may just appreciate the glossy near-acoustic sound you can get out of a solid body using that setup. Add FX to taste (or not). If you can, split the track, so you have a copy of the line out before the monitor, for re-amping. Nice dissonance. Thanks for the clip.-Richie
 
I'm baaack. I've designed a new T-shirt. It shows a group of vikings leading a woman in chains up the long winding path to the fully erupting Mt. Doom. The caption:

ICELAND- If they ask you if you're a virgin, just say no.
 
Richard Monroe said:
I'm baaack. I've designed a new T-shirt. It shows a group of vikings leading a woman in chains up the long winding path to the fully erupting Mt. Doom. The caption:

ICELAND- If they ask you if you're a virgin, just say no.
Click to expand...

That is just what the doctor ordered Richard.... how do I get one?



:cool:
 
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