Recording Guitar Reverb

[miroslav]

No...I didn't bring up the "name" thing.
It's not just about that, but if the artist makes all the decisions, and the end product sucks....who do you think will get blamed for the recording?

Like I said...until an engineer records other people enough times on their projects, it's a different perspective than when he is the artist/producer/engineer in his private recording environment working on just his own projects.
Most engineers respect the artist's vision...but artists who record themselves only, tend to always see things from just their perspective. When you have many people coming/going over time in the studio, and you are exposed to the various ways people work....you learn how to run the session toward a productive conclusion, and that's not about just doing what you are told and for money.

An engineer/producer is not hired to just put up mics and "STFU"....you as an artist would have to be a pretty big "name" to command that kind of power.

 

[Greg_L]

No...I didn't bring up the "name" thing.
It's not just about that, but if the artist makes all the decisions, and the end product sucks....who do you think will get blamed for the recording?

I don't know. The artist? Who cares?

Like I said...until an engineer records other people enough times on their projects, it's a different perspective than when he is the artist/producer/engineer in his private recording environment working on just his own projects.

Once again, are you talking about me?

An engineer/producer is not hired to just put up mics and "STFU".

Sure they are. Why can't they be? Forget "producers". They're a different animal entirely. Say someone books a studio and part of that is paying for for the engineer to mic and run everything? He should be allowed to make creative decisions? Why? Says who? What if the band doesn't want his input?

 

[miroslav]

I'm talking about recording more in a commercial, project-as-a-joint-venture sense, a group effort sense...
...than a private me-for-me sense.

Here at HR, I would guess the majority of people have only worked in the latter, which is cool, and I certainly do that too....but it's a different approach when there are "clients" and they have come to you to help them achieve their goal.

 

[Greg_L]

I'm talking about recording more in a commercial sense than a private me-for-me sense.

So am I. When I go get my car washed, I just want it washed. That's what I'm paying for. I don't ask the guy with the rag if I picked the right color. Just wash the motherfucking car.

Recording is no different, unless it's agreed upon beforehand what the roles are.

 

[miroslav]

Sorry....I don't see a studio session as getting a car washed.
There are some technical decisions, and even a lot of creative decisions that are directly tied to the experience of the people in the room. Some can be made by anyone that is involved, some can't, and require the engineer and/or producer to make them. That's how it works in most studios.
Try recording a bunch of newbs who are in the studio for the first time...and then tell me how you just "put up the mics and STFU" while they made all the decisions.

I'm sure the skill-set for using a sponge and rag are not of the same caliber as that ....at least how I see audio recording.

 

[Greg_L]

An engineer/producer is not hired to just put up mics and "STFU"....you as an artist would have to be a pretty big "name" to command that kind of power.

Now you're talking about things that are way up the biz ladder.

We're talking about nobodies recording nobodies, right? If I'm a nobody with a guitar, and you're a nobody with a mic, you have no room to talk about my sound unless I ask for it.

 

[Greg_L]

Sorry....I don't see a studio session as getting a car washed.
There are some technical decisions, and even a lot of creative decisions that are directly tied to the experience of the people in the room. Some can be made by anyone that is involved, some can't, and require the engineer and/or producer to make them. That's how it works in most studios.

Are we talking pro studios and studio personnel now? Stop bouncing around. I'll give you technical decisions, like which mic to use and where. Which preamp to use, etc. But creative decisions? No. Again, not unless they're asked for.

Try recording a bunch of newbs who are in the studio for the first time...and then tell me how you just "put up the mics and STFU" while they made all the decisions.

I surely have. Many times. I personally don't interfere. My only goal in that scenario is to get the best tracks I can of their shitty songs and sounds. A bad song is a bad song and a bad sound is a bad sound. I don't see it as my job to make people better. That's up to them. Unless they ask. And sometimes they do, and sometimes I tell them they're too far gone, let's just record this shit.

I'm sure the skill-set for using a sponge and rag are not of the same caliber as that ....at least how I see audio recording.

Well, that's up to you.

 

[miroslav]

Now you're talking about things that are way up the biz ladder.

We're talking about nobodies recording nobodies, right? If I'm a nobody with a guitar, and you're a nobody with a mic, you have no room to talk about my sound unless I ask for it.

Well I don't know that we are....I mean, people were tossing out "names" earlier, and it was I who said this is HR.

I agree...two newbs in a home-rec studio should just toss up a coin or equally fumble their way through the processs....but if that's who we are talking about, then where does all this "artistic vision" come in?
I mean, some newb just starting out...how much studio "vision" does he/she really have?

All I was saying is that if you do some recording as a semi-commercial/project studio, that is, you record other people besides just yourself....you then have some outside project experience too, and that a newb coming in for the first time isn't going to even be in a position to make all the decisions.

People who take the view that they are "getting paid", so just let the newb do what he wants...are not doing the artist any good in most cases. Of course, if you have that rare newb who happens to be some phenomenal player, who has his shit together, then by all means, get out of the way and let him record....be as transparent as you can, and just provide support when needed.... but that's rare, and most times you almost have to constantly guide, nudge and steer the sessions.
How you do that is the key to it coming off either as welcome support or the engineer just trying to impose his vision on the artist.

When the sessions hits a small snag, as many do many times....the artists always look up at the engineer, so do you just say, "Hey, it's your session, do what you want.".....?

 

[Steenamaroo]

Eugh. These things are only a problem if someone makes them a problem.

If your preference is to stay out of it, or try to get your hands dirty, I don't think it matters. That's everyone's choice.
I've a friend who is a wedding photographer and it's the same thing.

Many people come to him with the attitude that he's the experienced one and he knows best.
Where should we stand? Where should we look? What location should we pick?
Others call the shots and he'll happily follow that lead.

If his experience tells him that a shot wont work, he speaks up, but if a couple want some tacky cheesy shot that he personally dislikes, he doesn't.

I'm the same with recording. If I think something won't work for some technical reason, I'll say.
If I have a personal dislike for your guitar tone, that's not my business or problem.

 

[miroslav]

Many people come to him with the attitude that he's the experienced one and he knows best.
Where should we stand? Where should we look? What location should we pick?
Others call the shots and he'll happily follow that lead.

If his experience tells him that a shot wont work, he speaks up, but if a couple want some tacky cheesy shot that he personally dislikes, he doesn't.

Right.

An experienced engineer isn't going to just order the artists around...I actually think it's the inexperienced ones that need to "take control" because they are not able to see where the project is really going.
You are hired to make them sound good...you can't always do that by simply putting up mics and pressing record....and that's a reality.

If someone ever wanted something goofy in the studio....I never fought them, but it wasn't hard to show them why it wouldn't work, and then offer some alternatives...*for the artists to choose from*.
You still steer the sessions, and the artists still gets to make choices....that you provide based on your experience.

 

[wtfuhz]

you have no room to talk about my sound unless I ask for it.

You're right, but for the sake of saving an inarguably bad sounding recording, I would tell them what I SUGGEST. They can choose to listen or go on with their business, but my job as a combination of being their producer/engineer/guy-who-presses-record is to at least TRY to make them sound as good as I can. The only issue will be defining exactly what "good" is.

 

[Greg_L]

Well I don't know that we are....I mean, people were tossing out "names" earlier, and it was I who said this is HR.

I agree...two newbs in a home-rec studio should just toss up a coin or equally fumble their way through the processs....but if that's who we are talking about, then where does all this "artistic vision" come in?
I mean, some newb just starting out...how much studio "vision" does he/she really have?

They might have a lot. WTF is "studio vision" anyway? How is that even measured? Who are you to say that someone that has written a song is doing it wrong? You might not like it, you might not like the sound of it, but unless they ask for help specifically, I think the recorder should STFU and get out of the way.

All I was saying is that if you do some recording as a semi-commercial/project studio, that is, you record other people besides just yourself....you then have some outside project experience too, and that a newb coming in for the first time isn't going to even be in a position to make all the decisions.

Not the technical decisions. No. But n00b or veteran, I think the creative decisions are theirs and only theirs to make unless they ask for input and ideas.

People who take the view that they are "getting paid", so just let the newb do what he wants...are not doing the artist any good in most cases.

I disagree with the notion that it's the recorders job to make anyone better. I think it's the job of the recorder to capture their sound, whatever sound that is.

Of course, if you have that rare newb who happens to be some phenomenal player, who has his shit together, then by all means, get out of the way and let him record....be as transparent as you can, and just provide support when needed.... but that's rare, and most times you almost have to constantly guide, nudge and steer the sessions.
How you do that is the key to it coming off either as welcome support or the engineer just trying to impose their vision on the artist.

I don't disagree with that in principle, but again, I think outside help has to be asked for, and not assumed.

 

[Greg_L]

Right.

An experienced engineer isn't going to just order the artists around...I actually think it's the inexperienced ones that need to "take control" because they are not able to see where the project is really going.
You are hired to make them sound good...you can't always do that by simply putting up mics and pressing record....and that's a reality.

If someone ever wanted something goofy in the studio....I never fought them, but it wasn't hard to show them why it wouldn't work, and then offer some alternatives...*for the artists to choose from*.
You still steer the sessions, and the artists still gets to make choices....that you provide based on your experience.

It's funny how you ignored the rest of his post. You cut out the parts where he says his photographer buddy will let people do what they want if that's what they want.

 

[Greg_L]

You're right, but for the sake of saving an inarguably bad sounding recording, I would tell them what I SUGGEST. They can choose to listen or go on with their business, but my job as a combination of being their producer/engineer/guy-who-presses-record is to at least TRY to make them sound as good as I can. The only issue will be defining exactly what "good" is.

Well that's entirely up to you. It's your personal choice. I don't see it that way. I see it like this - mics don't lie. They pick up what you feed into them. Variations exist of course between mic types and brands, but they don't lie. The right mic for the job in the right spot will pick up exactly what you put into it. That's the job of the engineer. Some people might think that it's also his job to dial in the amp and teach the guitarist how to play. I don't see it that way. If your guitar tone is bad, it's your own fucking fault.

 

[miroslav]

I disagree with the notion that it's the recorders job to make anyone better. I think it's the job of the recorder to capture their sound, whatever sound that is.

Well then, this is where we disagree.
I'm not saying "make them better than they are"...I'm saying it is my job to make them sound *as best as they can be*...and that's something artists don't always see about themselves because they are just focused on their performance of the moment, and not how all the stuff is coming together...both creatively AND technically.

There are many creative options in the studio that have a specifc technical component, and if a newb artist is not aware of them, then their decisions are based on....inexperience.
I don't see that as a producer/engineer I should then still step aside and let them run with their inexperience...IF the session is not working as expected.

See...it's not about constantly steering the artist...but there are moments during sessions when you are *expected* to, and most often you can tell those moments by the "I'm not sure what to do next" epxressions on the artists' faces.

 

[miroslav]

It's funny how you ignored the rest of his post. You cut out the parts where he says his photographer buddy will let people do what they want if that's what they want.

No I didn't...I said that I didn't fight anyone in the studio when they wanted to do something goofy.

Unlike photographs, where you can snap a dozen in a few minutes, goofy and non-goofy and keep them all...you can't always do that in a session if that "something goofy" will then screw up everything that comes afterward in the production.

To go back to the OP...I would track both with and without reverb, and then compare and decide, but depending on the production goals, just going with reverb out of the amp may have more implication than the newb artist is aware of...and that's where the experienced producer/engineer has a job, a duty, to step in and make decisions and provide some options to the artist.

 

[Greg_L]

Well then, this is where we disagree.
I'm not saying "make them better than they are"...I'm saying it is my job to make them sound *as best as they can be*...and that's something artists don't always see about themselves because they are just focused on their performance of the moment, and not how all the stuff is coming together...both creatively AND technically.

Yes we totally disagree. IMO the best that they can be is exactly what they are. You can't make them sound any better than they are. The best you can do is capture what they sound like as accurately as you can. I say this because I don't for one second believe that anyone upon just meeting some artist or band can improve on what they actually are. If you came to me, or if I went to you, we couldn't make each other better. What you're doing is injecting your own ideals into their music. Maybe they want that. In which case, good for all of you. I think that is totally wrong though.

There are many creative options in the studio that have a specifc technical component, and if a newb artist is not aware of them, then their decisions are based on....inexperience.
I don't see that as a producer/engineer I should then still step aside and let them run with their inexperience...IF the session is not working as expected.

Why not though? What's wrong with inexperience? It's no freak stroke of luck that many bands' first albums are their best work.

See...it's not about constantly steering the artist...but there are moments during sessions when you are *expected* to, and most often you can tell those moments by the "I'm not sure what to do next" epxressions on the artists' faces.

That's a whole 'nother can of worms you're opening there. You're getting into the "they're simply not ready to record" territory. In that case, if you truly wanted to help, you'd send them away and tell them to not come back until they have their shit sorted out.

 

[Greg_L]

To go back to the OP...I would track both with and without reverb, and then compare and decide, but depending on the production goals, just going with reverb out of the amp may have more implication than the newb artist is aware of...and that's where the experienced producer/engineer has a job, a duty, to step in and make decisions and provide some options to the artist.

I agree with this, except you LET HIM DECIDE which way he wants to go because it's his fucking song, sound, and dollar.

 

[Greg_L]

Unlike photographs, where you can snap a dozen in a few minutes, goofy and non-goofy and keep them all...you can't always do that in a session if that "something goofy" will then screw up everything that comes afterward in the production.

Sure you can. You keep a bunch of takes. People do that shit all the time.

 

[wtfuhz]

At the end of the day, good teamwork between the artist and the recording team will yield great results. On the other hand, should one of the two try to take too much into their own hands, it could very easily smear a big shit stain right across the recording. Take into account what the artist wants, do your best to make that appear on the recording the best way it can sound. That may involve altering the current settings on his effects. That's all I'm saying, Greg