Recording Grand Piano

C

CanopuS

Amateur music since 1847
I know that the response here will essentially be "experiment", but I'd like to hear from people what they usually start with before fiddling. I'm soon going to record a baby Yamaha grand, but the only equipment I have available is:

- 2 Studio Projects C4's
- Studio Projects B1
- M-audio Dmp3
- Studio Projects VTB-1

The style is somewhere between Jazz and Indie, but the piano is intended to feel quite "clear" and "sharp" - as it will be within a rich mix as opposed to solo. The room is very large (it's the theatre at my school) but there are a few draped curtains used as baffles (the type you would normally associate with drama studios etc.)

Everywhere I look (SOS articles, Mix Online article) they suggest multiple options, but I don't really know where to start. Unlike the authors of those articles, I don't have a pair of AKG C12's or M147's, so I'd like some responses from those who have achieved a good sound with home recording equipment.

So how should I do it? Omni or Cardioid capsules? Whereabouts?

All advice appreciated :)
 
Thats what you do with your C451's right? You really do need to get some clips so I can hear the sound. Thanks for the input.

Incidently, if anyone has Mp3's or Pics they want to show, go ahead :)
 
Well, it really depends on the sound I'm after. Sometimes I use a pair of LDC tube mics and sometimes when I record together with a band I use a pair of PZM's taped to the lid (lid closed).

If you listen to the piano at the round side (opposite the keyboard) you will hear a very wide and warm sound. A DIN or ORTF placement of a decent pair of SDC's there, like the C4 can make you very happy as well.
 
Ah yes!
The ol' How to mike a grand piano thread. ;)

Grand Piano is my main instrument, as such, I've had a lot of experience at miking one. It is a beast of an instrument to mike. But when its done well, the results are spectacular!

Here's what works for me, most of the time:

Using 2 mics, (in this case it was a pair of TLM 103's)
One mike was set about 15" behind the pin block and about 8" above the strings around 1-1/3 octaves below middle C. The other was about 9" behind the pin block and about 4" above the strings around 1-1/3 octaves above middle C. The mic faces were angled in about 12 degrees toward each other. The lid was in the full up position.

This method yeilds an incredibly warm and rich tone that will sit well in a mix.
But, I'm more of a classical or neo-classical type player, and I look to achieve that sound in my recordings and mixes.

Here's what it sounded like using the above technique, room, mikes, chain, planetary alignment.... ;)

http://artists3.iuma.com/site-bin/streammp3.m3u?190193

I have some more examples and different position configurations, if you don't think that tone will work for you.
 
Han said:
Start with your C4's (cardioid) in an ORTF placement right behind the hammers at a foot high.

You will have a direct and clear sound with a very nice stereo image.

Find out about ORTF here: http://www.dpamicrophones.com/page.php?PID=131
Click to expand...

I tried that recently with a 7' Steinway grand at a live concert. We were using two Crown small diaphragm condensers, ORTF, centered about two feet away from the pin block and about six or eight inches above the strings, top wide open. I ran it through a DMP3. It worked well for a live recording and I didn't get the hammer noise I was afraid I'd get.

Chopin, Nocturne in Db Major Op. 27 #2​
 
For classical or Jazz I prefer more distant micing. Here is a sample from a CD of Robert Hamilton I made last year. It was recorded on New York Steinway with my DIY ribbon mics in M/S about 7 feet away, and about 1' to right from the stick.

M. Ravel, Oiseaux Tristes from Mirroirs:

 
>Here's what it sounded like using the above technique, room, mikes, chain, planetary alignment....<

Michael,

I could not open your link.
 
Michael -- that is a spectacular piano recording! You didn't play the piano yourself by any chance, did you?? Did you add reverb? Its interesting, also, because everyone bashed the poor TLM103 on this board, while they seem to work perfect for that particular project.

I'm not too crazy about how the strings sound though ;)
 
Giganova said:
Michael -- that is a spectacular piano recording! You didn't play the piano yourself by any chance, did you?? Did you add reverb? Its interesting, also, because everyone bashed the poor TLM103 on this board, while they seem to work perfect for that particular project.

I'm not too crazy about how the strings sound though ;)
Click to expand...

Yeah, that's me playing.
I didn't add any reverb, just the natural sound of the instrument.
I did use a little more damper pedal than I normally would though, because I wanted that sympathetic resonance from the other strings. That may be what you're hearing.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "how the strings sound". ??

The TLM 103 is, IMO just a fantastic microphone. If you don't have 2 of them, you're missing out.
I've used it on woodwinds, piano, even vocals, and it never has let me down.
If you own one, and you're not getting a good sound from it, you're not positioning it right. It can be finicky, but when its on - its spot on!

Marik - try http://artists.iuma.com/IUMA/Bands/Michael_Jones/
The song is called "December's Mist"
There's another song on there that I'm kinda partial to called "Tenderly"
But I don't think the recording is as good as "December's Mist".

Or go to:
http://www.nowhereradio.com/artists/album.php?aid=1656&alid=-1
and look for "December's Mist"
 
That piano really sounds great, great playing as well. I know what Giganova means about the strings though. They sound a bit sterile and stiff to me, then again I didn't get to listen to the song at a very good volume level...it's late and I don't want to wake anyone up.
 
Michael Jones said:
I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "how the strings sound". ??
Click to expand...
Well, to put it that way: I amost thought its a low-quality VST instrument. "Sterile and stiff" is very close to what I mean. Maybe its just the contrast to the piano, which is so rich in color.


Michael Jones said:
The TLM 103 is, IMO just a fantastic microphone. If you don't have 2 of them, you're missing out.
Click to expand...
That's interesting. I have a mic which might be very similar, a Gefell M930. Never tried it on a piano, though (I don't have a piano and no mobile recording rig either). I am thinking about getting a second one for stereo recording. Should have gotten the stereo set in the first place! :(
 
Cool. Thanks for all the replies. I'm impressed with the quality of all of your recordings :) I think a direct and clear sound would suit me the best (edging towards Treelines recordings). Michael, your piano sounded great, but I have a feeling that sound is better suited to solo piano, or a not very dense mix. It's probably a tad too midrangey to stand out amongst several guitar tracks, vocals, drums, 2 backing tracks of vocal harmonies (I'm not exaggerating here!) - I'd be interested in hearing what other techniques you've chosen to get other tones

Likewise with Marik - Nice sound, but it works better with solo piano I would say.

Plus I'm always striving for a sound away from my upright, which is REALLY REALLY muffled and unclear, so I love that bright clear sound :)

"and being an astronomer" You're an astronomer?! Thats very cool. I've been into astronomy since I said my first word ("moon"!) and have spent countless evenings with me, my binoculars, a star map and my telescope exploring space. It's now out of hand, I can remember the shape of every constellation, it's position, the main stars, what colour they are, how far they are, magnitude. ARGH! Cool though! :)
 
Here's something Harvey wrote for Electronic Musician a while back that should help shine some light on the subject...

By Harvey Gerst

Pianos and Mics - No Simple Solutions

Just as with most acoustic stringed instruments, the bulk of the sound is produced by the sounding board to which the strings are attached. In guitars and violins, it's the top of the instrument; in pianos, it's the sounding board. You don't mic the picks, the bows, or the hammers - they produce very little sound.

There are several considerations when placing mics for piano recording. Foremost, will the instrument be recorded by itself, or with other instruments playing at the same time? Those two situations require different mic techniques. Is it a grand piano or an upright piano? Each requires different mic techniques. Finally, where will the recording take place? That may also require different mic techniques.

If the purpose of the recording is accuracy, and you're micing a solo concert grand piano, then you'll need some good, small diaphragm condensor mics, placed some distance from the piano, usually around 6 to 8 feet away. You can use an x-y setup for cardioids, or a wider spaced ORTF setup with omnis or cardioids.

The piano lid is used to direct some of the sound towards the mics. IF the piano is part of a group of instruments, you can get better isolation by micing the underside of the instrument, using a sightly wide spacing with omnis or cardioids. Mics placed inside the top of the instrument can also be used, but it's harder to achieve a good balance or isolation since the piano lid will also reflect sounds from the other instruments into the mics.

Large diaphragm mics can also be used, but the response changes as the sound enters from different angles and the larger mics add coloration (which can sometimes add an unexpected richness to the sound).

Upright pianos should be miked from the back of the instrument, but try to avoid having the soundboard too close to a wall. The distance from the wall will create a standing wave which will interfere with the sound. If the piano has to be near a wall, angle the piano so that it doesn't sit parallel to the wall. Be especially attentive to a ringing sound when micing upright pianos.

This ringing is caused by resonances within the piano, and usually can be solved or reduced by moving the mics around till you find a dead area, free of the ringing. Just as with a concert grand, close micing is not advised, but since an upright piano is usually part of a group, it's not possible to mic from a distance and still have isolation.

To sum it up, first choices for recording a piano would be small omni or cardioid condensor mics, but don't be afraid to try large condensors, ribbons, or dynamic mics (if that's all you have). Mic from a distance if possible. Second choice would be under the piano, and finally, from the top of the piano, but watch out for ringing and reflections from that position.
 
Giganova - You mean the string SECTION! Oh, I get it now. I thought you were talking about the piano strings. :confused: I'm dense sometimes!
The strings were from a Roland JV2080 with a concert instruments module.
They really lost depth in the conversion to mp3.
The flute was real, but the French horn was from the roland as well.

I don't know why it is those instruments from the Roland just don't convert well to mp3. They just lose SO much. :confused:

Anyway, thanks for the kind remarks and for listening.

Canopus - I hope I helped a little bit. Maybe I gave you some ideas of what NOT to do? ;) When it comes right down to it, you ARE going to have to experiment, but at least you'll have some starting points.
 
Micheal
What type of preamp are you using with the 103's? What are you recording to and are you using some type of Analog to Digital conversion?
Sorry for all the questions,but that is a great sounding recording.I own a pair of 103's with a Millennia preamp. I was considering selling them for something better till I heard your recording. I am going into a Motu 2408MKIII. I think I will invest in a better AD converter,
By the way,on the strings issue.You should really take a look at the Garritan Personal Orchestra sample Library. It would sound incredible with that Piece.
 
jaredq - thanks for the tip on Garritan Personal Orchestra, I'll have to look into it. I'd actually like to re-do the strings with live instruments.... at some point.
The pres were a pair of vintage AUDIX 35102's, racked by Brent.
The AD/DA conversion is by Steinberg's 8 i/o, recorded into Nuendo through Nuendo's 96/52 audio card.

I've used the 8 channel version (HV3B) of the Mellina Media mic pre before, and I must say, I think that is one phenominal pre-amp. I was able to audition it in my studio for a couple of weeks, and I ran it through a lot of tests and sample recordings.
The only thing I didn't like about it was the way gain increases were structured. But its still one helluva pre-amp!
 
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