Recording grand piano...standard technique not working...

[rgraves]

OK, everyone, still need some more help...I went to do some more recording and even though I positioned everything the same as before, now I am getting the foot pedal in the recording all loud, and the hammers moving are coming through as well. It sounds like crap, actually, hehe.

Shoot...now I'm wondering if I should switch back to far micing...too many things not sounding good on the close micing...I don't understand how people even close mic the hammers for certain kinds of music and stuff, even though I am not near the hammers they sound awful.

I did 1 foot from the strings and 3 feet from each other, in the link there are 2 scratch tracks I had someone do just to get an example of the problems and pictures of the set up.

Any suggestions on how to alter to reduce the foot pedal sound and hammer sound?

http://www.users.qwest.net/~fisherdennis/

Very short clips and small file sizes. I just exported the tracks raw, volume is quite low, I didn't add any gain or alter the tracks in any way.

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

If you're still using omnis inside the piano, try switching to cardioids. Plus that pisno still sounds a bit brittle; I think you could benefit from a different mic/pre combo. Also move down the strings from the hammers a couple of inches to mellow out the hammer sound. Hammers are usually miked for a honky tonk/rock styling.

I'd also ask about the condition of the piano itself. How's the felt on the hammers? And maybe it's the MP3, but I'm not 100% positive that I didn't hear some beat frequencies in there resulting from some slightly off tuning or bad strings. I know you said you got a piano tuner buddy that does it for you a lot, but you might want to verify the tuning condition with him/her.

And is the pedal really that noisy or does the player have a leadfoot? Some players simply have noisier foot technique than others.

G.

 

[rgraves]

If you're still using omnis inside the piano, try switching to cardioids. Plus that pisno still sounds a bit brittle; I think you could benefit from a different mic/pre combo. Also move down the strings from the hammers a couple of inches to mellow out the hammer sound. Hammers are usually miked for a honky tonk/rock styling.

I'd also ask about the condition of the piano itself. How's the felt on the hammers? And maybe it's the MP3, but I'm not 100% positive that I didn't hear some beat frequencies in there resulting from some slightly off tuning or bad strings. I know you said you got a piano tuner buddy that does it for you a lot, but you might want to verify the tuning condition with him/her.

And is the pedal really that noisy or does the player have a leadfoot? Some players simply have noisier foot technique than others.

G.

Hey southside, thanks for having a listen.
The mics as they were set up (and recorded) were in cardiod position.

Also, I assume you saw the picture...Actually the bass mic is pretty much facing the end of the bass strings...if I move it down anymore it will be pointed towards the soundboard rather than the string, does that matter? Probably not...although one thing I will mention is that even just soloing the bass mic only, I can still hear the hammer sound rather pronounced, and the foot pedal comes through just the same.

Actually come to think of it, I believe the hammers are just rather pronounced in general...

I think you're right about different mics being a better choice...these mics seem to highlight everything that I want them not to...maybe I should have gone with some different mics, either those SM81s or studio project c4.
The pre is not really an option at this time...I have only a 1820M I'm running it through...I wonder what might be a nice compliment to that when I get the money to get an upgrade?

Well anyhow, I still think this boils down to my micing technique, actually the piano sounds quite good in the room, and in certain places in the room the pedal sound is inaudible and the hammer sound is inaudible from a bit of a distance as well. I wonder if some kind of barrier would help? Like blankets put up somewhere or some kind of material placed somewhere.

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Also, I assume you saw the picture...although one thing I will mention is that even just soloing the bass mic only, I can still hear the hammer sound rather pronounced, and the foot pedal comes through just the same.

Sorry, i had not looked at the pics originally. One thing I see now that I look that might help a bit is that the mics - especially the treble mic - can definitely be moved closer to the strings. I might try moving the mics in cardioid to an ORTF configuration mounted on a T at the end of the boom, align the axis of those mics parallel to the hammers (rather than the wide spread tangential axis you have now). Bring the mics in to something like 3"-5" off the strings, angled slightly away from the hammers if you have to. That's just a starting point, mind you; fine tune from there.

Actually come to think of it, I believe the hammers are just rather pronounced in general...

I can't say for sure, but from what I see and hear, I think at least part of it is simply the instrument itself. That baby grand is not going to sound like a 7' Steinway

I think you're right about different mics being a better choice...these mics seem to highlight everything that I want them not to...I have only a 1820M I'm running it through...I wonder what might be a nice compliment to that when I get the money to get an upgrade?

Depends upon how much money you want to spend. The 1820 is not a bad interface, but a demanding instrument like a piano or acoustic guitar can seperate the men preamps from the boys, and there are better ones than the TFPros in the E-Mu. Next step up might be something like the Apogee MiniMP (followed by the Mini-Me if you want the Apogee converters as well). Then some of the better Focusrite stuff is worth a look IMHO. After that it starts getting *really* expensive(Manley, GML, etc.)

actually the piano sounds quite good in the room, and in certain places in the room the pedal sound is inaudible and the hammer sound is inaudible from a bit of a distance as well.

Have you tried simply miking from where it sounds good to your ears? There's no better way to tell where to put a mic than to choose where it sounds good to you. Screw the theories.

Don't even worry about the stereo miking, at least not initially. If there is a sweet spot in your room where the paino sounds best, stick a mic there.

G.

 

[ecktronic]

Ive not read any of the other posts, but Id maybe say to have it in a pretty large open space when recording. Nice wooden floor for good acoustics,
Matched pair of nice condensors. And a good deal of playing about with mic positioning.

And obviously you need a nice sounding piano ,and a properly tuned piano.

Eck

 

[TragikRemix]

if i had to record a piano, using the mic i've got,

i would use my two SDC's (akg c430's, cardiod) on the outer edges pointing in,
my LDC (oktava MK319), smack in the middle
and 2 57's in between the 319 and 430's.

total 5 mics. i've never done it, have no clue what i would be doing, but it looks good typed up

good luck.

 

[rgraves]

I might try moving the mics in cardioid to an ORTF configuration mounted on a T at the end of the boom, align the axis of those mics parallel to the hammers (rather than the wide spread tangential axis you have now). Bring the mics in to something like 3"-5" off the strings, angled slightly away from the hammers if you have to.

I think I need to try this as well...I haven't tried this with the piano...only spaced pairs. I will post an example of the result when I get it.

I think at least part of it is simply the instrument itself. That baby grand is not going to sound like a 7' Steinway

Actually this is a 7 1/2 foot semi concert grand, not a baby. Hehehe.
But it is not a Steinway.

Have you tried simply miking from where it sounds good to your ears? There's no better way to tell where to put a mic than to choose where it sounds good to you. Screw the theories.

Yeah, I had tried that in the beginning and that's when room noise became a big factor...refridgerator buzzing and air cond blowing...just a very high noise floor. I talked to her about that and she was concerned about unplugging her fridge for the 3 hour sessions we are doing. But I think if the ORTF suggestion doesn't work we're gonna need to do this, that is the most logical answer anyways.

 

[rgraves]

Hey everyone,

Wanted to post an update...I tried out some of the suggestions here, on that piano recording I'm doing, in particular the ORTF 3" off the strings pointed slightly away from the hammers and bingo! It sounds much better...hammers not sticking out and the sound is much warmer rather than bright and harsh. (Haven't updated that link with new clips yet) Kind of weird, I would have expected to get more harshness that close to the strings...oh well, go fig.

So now I have one last question (about this anyways )...I am still getting a "whoosh" everytime the pedal changes. I stuck my head in the piano and found out why...it's just a fricken loud whoosh everytime the dampers come up...regardless of how soft someone tries to do it. I am wondering if that is common? I mean, there doesn't appear to be anything wrong, it just makes quite a noticible sound when the dampers come up. I haven't really ever stuck my head in a grand before, so I'm not sure if it's common or not.

Of course, about 10 feet back from the piano, it's completely unnoticible even without playing any notes, and it's not HORRIBLY distracting, but very much noticible. This won't be an issue on the songs that we will be adding vocals to or other instruments, but the solo piano pieces it will. Should I try to EQ it out somehow, or hmm, IDK.

Tell me what you think if you have a moment...

Thanks!!

 

[ecktronic]

I dont think that is a problem with your recording technique, I think that is just something that piano does.
My piano makes alot of noise when pressing any of the pedals. If I press hard it makes a noise that resonates through the wood, and softly it makes a creeking noise im sure.
Just dont push the pedals whe recording. Try merging takes together of parts that need the pedal pushed and parts without the pedal pushed.

Eck