Recording - getting return on investment and music legal stuff

[Squiksilvery]

Ok, I am recording a band. My gear is in their studio, so I'm their "in house producer" (if you like). I am not charging them... as they have no money to invest. They are managed by the same company as The Verve, Badly Drawn Boy, Klaxons... Their last record (produced as Olympic in London) is played on BBC Radio 1... so potentially they could be destined for some chart hits... and it could be my production.

Its an area I need to learn, but: The question is: My recordings may later be sold, played on air etc etc etc... and the band will benefit. If I do nothing I will get nothing; what should I do? Do I own the record and they own the music???

 

[Xeries]

Ok, I am recording a band. My gear is in their studio, so I'm their "in house producer" (if you like). I am not charging them... as they have no money to invest. They are managed by the same company as The Verve, Badly Drawn Boy, Klaxons... Their last record (produced as Olympic in London) is played on BBC Radio 1... so potentially they could be destined for some chart hits... and it could be my production.

Its an area I need to learn, but: The question is: My recordings may later be sold, played on air etc etc etc... and the band will benefit. If I do nothing I will get nothing; what should I do? Do I own the record and they own the music???

I'm not a lawyer, but I have an opinion that might be helpful: The answer to your question ultimately lies with the band and their collective decision.

You are providing a service for which you should be paid. They obviously would agree to that.

Since they have no "up front" money to hire you, they may decide to give you "back end" points.

By that I mean that they might give you a percentage of the SR copyright.

The PA copyright should be the band's. They are the "performing artists" and the authorship and all rights thereof belong to them.

However the "sound recording" is registered separately when a "producer" is responsible for the actual product.

In this case, if it weren't for your efforts, they would have no product.

Therefore they may agree to give you 15% or 20% of the sales proceeds for downloads or CD sales after the cost of duplication and packaging.

That percentage would only apply to the recording you made, not any future recordings of the same song.

The only downside of this situation is that you have to have two registrations. They are $35.00 each online, but you can do the entire album as a collection.

So, tell the band that you want points. Either that or some up front money for studio time.

If they are on the verge of getting big, they're best option is to borrow money and pay you first. Much cheaper in the long run. HTH

 

[Squiksilvery]

great advice - thanks

 

[mikeh]

Good advice from Xeries. Getting points is a very common method of deferred compensation. Obviously, you need to see proof that the band does indeed list you on any copywrite documentation. But as important as the copyright, is the collection and distribution of any royalties - which is where something like BMI or ASCAP come in.

Certainly talk to the group, work out the method of current or deferred payment and then get the agreement documented (if it isn't in writing and if it isn't signed - it can't be legally enforced).

As always, it is wise to have an attorney with entertainment law background review any contract you may enter into.

 

[Mindset]

Thing is, people tend to think getting points = getting paid. Unless they are well developed and will push hundreds of thousands if not millions, you probably won't see much of a cent from royalities. Therefore sometimes it's ideal to take lump sums upfront, or demand money instead of points.

 

[pandamonk]

Ok, I am recording a band. My gear is in their studio, so I'm their "in house producer" (if you like). I am not charging them... as they have no money to invest. They are managed by the same company as The Verve, Badly Drawn Boy, Klaxons... Their last record (produced as Olympic in London) is played on BBC Radio 1... so potentially they could be destined for some chart hits... and it could be my production.

Its an area I need to learn, but: The question is: My recordings may later be sold, played on air etc etc etc... and the band will benefit. If I do nothing I will get nothing; what should I do? Do I own the record and they own the music???

In my understanding, whoever pays for recording(you because it was free) owns that recording. You can do whatever you want with the recording, but it is their song. So once it's recorded, the ball's in your court. If they wanna release it, they have to go through you.

 

[Mindset]

In my understanding, whoever pays for recording(you because it was free) owns that recording. You can do whatever you want with the recording, but it is their song. So once it's recorded, the ball's in your court. If they wanna release it, they have to go through you.

Usually the recording label will own the SR copyrights period.

 

[Squiksilvery]

they aren't signed to a label - they just have management, the management may wish to release it on their behalf (and take the arranged cut of profits). I intend to allow the band to send a cd or mp3 to the management (to show them the new material), but how do I "copywrite" (if thats the right term) the recording?

 

[pandamonk]

Usually the recording label will own the SR copyrights period.

Yes because they pay for the recording. But if there is no money, then we can assume there is no record label. So whoever pays for it owns it. In this case, the producer is effectively paying, by not receiving payment.

 

[pandamonk]

they aren't signed to a label - they just have management, the management may wish to release it on their behalf (and take the arranged cut of profits). I intend to allow the band to send a cd or mp3 to the management (to show them the new material), but how do I "copywrite" (if thats the right term) the recording?

The simplest way to copyright is to send a cd to yourself through the post and don't open it. It should be stamped and dated, so this will be proof that you have the first copy of the recording.

The management will have to pay you/give you a cut. You own the recordings if you don't get paid, so you're in control. Obviously you want to be friendly, but you don't wanna be in a position where you get walked all over.

 

[Squiksilvery]

So, do the record(s)
Copywrite them
Send to management, noting the copywrite.
Negotiate a cut from any air play or sales etc.
Sign a contract
Allow use of MY record(s)

Will I have to regester with the royalties people? Or will the management declare the'r revenue from the record and simply follow the contract and pay me from the money they receive?

 

[pandamonk]

So, do the record(s)
Copywrite them
Send to management, noting the copywrite.
Negotiate a cut from any air play or sales etc.
Sign a contract
Allow use of MY record(s)

Will I have to regester with the royalties people? Or will the management declare the'r revenue from the record and simply follow the contract and pay me from the money they receive?

Well i'd think you'd have to register with the mcps.

Maybe you should just contact the mcps and tell them what's happening, and they might be able to better advise you what to do.

 

[DavidK]

So, do the record(s)

Will I have to regester with the royalties people?

You wont have to register anything, because you arent going to see a cent.

but how do I "copywrite" (if thats the right term) the recording?

You dont. Its not your recording. Its theirs. Or the managements.

So, do the record(s)
Copywrite them
Send to management, noting the copywrite.
Negotiate a cut from any air play or sales etc.
Sign a contract
Allow use of MY record(s)

Nope.

If the record is to get any significant airplay/sales, most likely a label/management/distributor etc will be involved. They wont WANT to be involved unless they own 100% of it. If they dont, they have no incentive to pursue it.

You are the engineer. Engineers dont own albums. Thats like my plumber owning my toilet because he worked on it. You merely provided a service, and should be compensated for that service UP FRONT. If you are not, you wont see a cent. You're a hired gun.

There's a good reason why studios and engineers dont work on commission, you are about to find out the reason.

 

[Squiksilvery]

...well the recordings are mine, and music is theirs. The copywrite of the recordings are mine. They could have the finished CD in their hands and I could refuse permission for them to use it.

confused

 

[DavidK]

...well the recordings are mine, and music is theirs. The copywrite of the recordings are mine. They could have the finished CD in their hands and I could refuse permission for them to use it.

Unfortunately, you have entered into something that every Star Trek fan knows, the Kobayashi Maru.

Its a no-win scenario. Yes, you posess the physical recording. No, you do not own it. The copyrights are NOT yours, they are theirs. All you own is a disc with music on it.

My gear is in their studio,

Great Ceasar's Ghost!

I'm afraid you are in a bit of a pickle. Look, people can talk about laws and copyright and rights and blah blah until the cows come home. The REALITY of the situation is that they have your stuff and you have nothing. You cant hold a disc hostage when they have your stuff.

Trust me here, Ive played on 63 commercial CDs: if you dont get your money up front, you will never see a cent. You can hem and haw about who owns what, it doesnt matter. You can threaten and schmeaten. Get some money up front or else consider it a learning experience. Ask any pro engineer on this site, there are quite a few. Ask em if anyone has EVER got one penny in residuals, and if they have it is EXTREMELY rare if they did (they didnt!).

 

[pandamonk]

You wont have to register anything, because you arent going to see a cent.



You dont. Its not your recording. Its theirs. Or the managements.



Nope.

If the record is to get any significant airplay/sales, most likely a label/management/distributor etc will be involved. They wont WANT to be involved unless they own 100% of it. If they dont, they have no incentive to pursue it.

You are the engineer. Engineers dont own albums. Thats like my plumber owning my toilet because he worked on it. You merely provided a service, and should be compensated for that service UP FRONT. If you are not, you wont see a cent. You're a hired gun.

There's a good reason why studios and engineers dont work on commission, you are about to find out the reason.

That's not true. Whoever pays for the recording owns the recording. That's why labels almost always own the recording. If no one pays for it, then the person who does it for free is the person losing out, so effectively they've paid for it, and therefore own it.

 

[pandamonk]

All you own is a disc with music on it.

Yes the only disc with that music on it. He owns the only copy of the music. He owns the copyright. They own the copyright to the music and lyrics, but not that recording.

 

[Squiksilvery]

Yes the only disc with that music on it. He owns the only copy of the music. He owns the copyright. They own the copyright to the music and lyrics, but not that recording.

Pandamonk - obviously, it would not be the only disk - I would have the originals, in all formats and all the audio files dated individually - Physically and legally I would own the recordings.

The band are good mates of mine, I would have done it for nothing anyway.

..and no I would not see a cent, as I operate in Pounds and Pence.

I'm still none the wiser

 

[pandamonk]

Pandamonk - obviously, it would not be the only disk - I would have the originals, in all formats and all the audio files dated individually - Physically and legally I would own the recordings.

The band are good mates of mine, I would have done it for nothing anyway.

..and no I would not see a cent, as I operate in Pounds and Pence.

I'm still none the wiser

It would be the only disk until you agreed on payment, so you'd be in control. But yeah, i thought it might be for mates. Talk to them and see what they say. Let them know that if you don't get paid, you effectively, legally, own the copyright to those recordings. Try and get something on paper, even though it's mates. Sometimes mates are the hardest to work with though, 'cause you don't really wanna talk about money etc.

 

[DavidK]

That's not true. Whoever pays for the recording owns the recording. That's why labels almost always own the recording. If no one pays for it, then the person who does it for free is the person losing out, so effectively they've paid for it, and therefore own it.

No THATS not true. Nor is this:

He owns the only copy of the music. He owns the copyright. They own the copyright to the music and lyrics, but not that recording.

Sorry,but you are wrong. Lemme explain:

I own a coffee table. I hire you to fix it. I dont pay my bill. Who owns the coffee table?
I DO.
Its MY coffee table, always has been. I hired you to do a job, you are a hired hand and work for me. Can you hold the table hostage until I pay? Probably, at least for a while. But its not yours, its MINE.

The engineer= hired hand. Absolutely, positively. The only problem is that the OP was unwise and didnt discuss his fee IN ADVANCE. He provided a service. As a session musician, I provide a service too. People pay me, I play. I own nothing. The same thing with the guy who fixes the coffee table, he provided a service and owns nothing. Can he hold the CD hostage? Maybe, but read his words:

I am not charging them... as they have no money to invest.

He's not charging them. To me, that is crystal clear, it means that he is not charging them. If he told them he wasnt charging them so be it, he cant change the rules. As I said before, he is in a no-win scenario.

Record contracts are 100s of pages long, I have one on my desk. They are that long for a reason. There is no contract here, just some dudes getting a free recording.