Recording ethics

[LeeRosario]

Actually, you can't.

You only think you can. If you actually believe this statement is true, then you have issues with reality.

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You know what's funny about this, I believe the US is the most anal when it comes to attention to detail. Especially New York and LA, man.

For example, remembering what some bands had to say in this documentary I was watching, the guys mentioned one thing that I always found to be true.


"See up here (seattle) it was always enough to get people rowdy, but in LA and NY it was always "nah...I dont think they did that right".

 

[pipelineaudio]

This can often come down to "do you want to work in this business or dont you?"

Do you want your customers happy or dont you?

Do you want crap coming out of your place or dont you?

If its a modern band after a modern "perfect" mix, youve already played every instrument in the process of editing together and tuning to make what could be construed as a "performance"

 

[dkerwood]

Actually, you can't.

You only think you can. If you actually believe this statement is true, then you have issues with reality.

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We'll agree to disagree. I've seen many awesome stage shows, few of which were flawless. Even less come up to the level of musical production that can be found on their CD. But that's what their CD is for.

Frankly, I don't mind a "raw" sounding track. Sounds more organic to me. The latest CD by Jars of Clay is almost completely recorded in one take, and sounds sooo smooth, even through a couple of iffy bars here and there.

Maybe you don't get what I mean by "inconsistent". I don't mean blowing choruses and missing chords. I mean things like slight pitch imperfections in the vocals or slightly fumbling through a technical part of a guitar solo... Maybe dropping a stick in the middle of the third set.

Bottom line is, there is not a single one of use here who can execute a perfect performance. Ever. Anyone who thinks he can is deluding himself. We strive for perfection in hopes of achieving excellence. The only difference between live playing and studio work is that you get more chances to get it "more" right in the studio.

And we've all heard bands who sound better live than on their CD (and vice versa).

Really, comparing live music to recorded music is like comparing a movie to a novel. The novel's sole purpose is to sell itself - the story. The movie has to sell the story, the actors, the effects, the direction... Same thing. The studio recording is really only selling the music. A live show sells the music, the band members, the stage, the lights, the audience, the pounding volume, the excitement...

So I stand behind my statement. Inconsistent live playing can be overcome by a strong live show.

 

[Cloneboy Studio]

Bottom line is, there is not a single one of use here who can execute a perfect performance. Ever. Anyone who thinks he can is deluding himself. We strive for perfection in hopes of achieving excellence. The only difference between live playing and studio work is that you get more chances to get it "more" right in the studio.

False dichotomy.

In essence you are saying that sucking is acceptable because "nobody is perfect." I can't say I agree with your logic or your attempt at a point.

 

[easychair]

In essence you are saying that sucking is acceptable because "nobody is perfect."

No, he said "We strive for perfection in hopes of achieving excellence". Imperfection isn't a crime. That's a far cry from "Sucking is acceptable".

 

[Cloneboy Studio]

No, he said "We strive for perfection in hopes of achieving excellence". Imperfection isn't a crime. That's a far cry from "Sucking is acceptable".

Read between the lines. Anyways I didn't say "he said" I said that he is implying it through the use of a false dichotomy. If you follow the logical progression of his statement back to his original arguments you'll see that I'm right--as usual.

 

[chessrock]

Inconsistent live playing can be overcome by a strong live show.

You can keep saying it all you want, but it doesn't make it any more true. It's no different than the guy who believes he can cover his bald spot by combing his (remaining) strands of hair over it and greasing it down. There are a lot of sloppy/shitty live bands out there, and if you believe that statement you keep repeating, then you probably belong to one of them.

The only things that can overcome performance inconsistancies are rehearsal and musical chemistry. Although I will admit that consumption of large volumes of alcohol can certainly make an audience more forgiving, but that's an entirely different subject altogether.

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[dkerwood]

You can keep saying it all you want, but it doesn't make it any more true. It's no different than the guy who believes he can cover his bald spot by combing his (remaining) strands of hair over it and greasing it down. There are a lot of sloppy/shitty live bands out there, and if you believe that statement you keep repeating, then you probably belong to one of them.

The only things that can overcome performance inconsistancies are rehearsal and musical chemistry. Although I will admit that consumption of large volumes of alcohol can certainly make an audience more forgiving, but that's an entirely different subject altogether.

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I don't think we disagree, really. I just think the language is getting in the way... You say "musical chemistry", and I say "strong live show". We're talking about the same thing, although you described it better.

But again, you could be the most musically talented band in the world, but if you just stand up on stage and play exactly the notes that are on your CD, I'm not sure I'd pay to go hear it (and almost certainly wouldn't do it more than once). On the other hand, I've seen many bands that were fun, engaging, and exciting onstage, yet their CD was completely boring and didn't sound anywhere close to the professional level that the live performance showed.

Apples and oranges.

 

[dkerwood]

Read between the lines. Anyways I didn't say "he said" I said that he is implying it through the use of a false dichotomy. If you follow the logical progression of his statement back to his original arguments you'll see that I'm right--as usual.

Actually, I think you've got an overinflated ego -- as usual.

I don't mean to say that sucking is good. I mean to say that nobody will be perfect, period. I don't care how many hours you spend in rehearsal or how many hours you spend tweaking the mix. Even Cloneboy Studio won't release one perfect track.

All we can do is try for perfection, and hope that we get as close as possible.

 

[seanr]

In many cases, I believe dkerwood is right on this one. I'd say that with loud independant bands at least (this doesn't really apply to people who play acoustically) the live sound quality is usually bad enough that no one can hear the majority of what a guitarist is playing anyway. Bands with extremely expensive sound guys may have to play their songs note-perfect, but most mortal bands can get away with a fair bit. Unless you REALLY fuck it up, no one will even know the difference. Admittedly, this doesn't apply if you're actually recording the show.

 

[LeeRosario]

Perfection...unperfection...who cares. It's music and a business under one roof.

Sometimes you have the 1 taker session musicians that studio owners hate.

Sometimes you have the guy who has to move in for half a funking year just to get the guitar solo right to "Mary's Sick Sadistic Lamb".

I'll tell you this, the Rolling Stones where half a turd stick in the studio back in the day and McJagwar is still tappin some fine turbine. Both studio and live. Shit happens, some people suck and others don't. Some people get better and some just continue to break glass.

So why the issue?

In fact, I would figure a top notch engineer would be so lucky to have the occasional Mr Perfecto times a million takes in the studio.


Especially the ones that have pockets so deep, they start a little fire everytime they write a check. (Can you hear the deep evil laugh comming out of his pocket?)




So you know what I say? Let those who suck, suck and let those who dominate, rise to the top and blow all thier cash. The world needs balance. It's like the music industry eco system.

I can only imagine what the poor thread starter must be thinking right about now. I'm sure he's probably scared shitless of engineers. I know I would be.

I am totally going to die a young smart ass.

 

[Cloneboy Studio]

I can only imagine what the poor thread starter must be thinking right about now. I'm sure he's probably scared shitless of engineers. I know I would be.

I can't stand it when people cannot get their parts down, even if I am making more money in the process. Honestly, life is too short to be spent recording rich talentless morons. I like things to progress smoothly and at a comfortable pace. I don't expect things to be done in the first take, but you can tell people that have done their homework versus the lazy and/or talentless.

Sigh.

 

[pipelineaudio]

100% with cloneboy

back in the day when bands WERE scared of the studio, before the mackie/adat or newer pt/conservatory price drop, it cost enough that they wouldnt be writing thier lyrics in the studio unless they were on a label budget

 

[crowning]

What are your thoughts about a band having someone who ISN'T in the band record some parts to cover for errors made by a band member?

A simple advice: be honest to the other band members AND to yourself.
IF you replace a take with something from yourself, ask before.
If the other guy is okay with this, do it.
If not, request another take from him. If he still refuses or can't play
better accept it as it is, you're in a BAND.

If you can stand this (lack of) quality, change band members or do make a
solo project.

Everything else is wasted time and nerves and most people involved
won't be happy.
Tom

 

[dkerwood]

100% with cloneboy

back in the day when bands WERE scared of the studio, before the mackie/adat or newer pt/conservatory price drop, it cost enough that they wouldnt be writing thier lyrics in the studio unless they were on a label budget

Exactly. But these days, we can do it on a shoestring. Computer included, I have invested less than $500 in what I consider to be a fairly solid recording setup (a lot better than my old $50 Cakewalk program and an SM58). A bit less expensive than the big boy studios.

Now don't get me wrong. We still plan on hitting the "real" studio in another 6 months to a year, but we need a solid demo until then, and maybe a little something to sit in some fans' CD players.

We're going to try again this weekend, I think.

On another note: Can anybody suggest an inexpensive soundcard that boasts 4 or even 8 inputs? Man, with 8 inputs, we could record the band at once (instruments anyway), and dedicate 6 channels to drums. Best of both worlds, baby. Live "groove", but studio control. How much processor is required to jump up to that many channels?

 

[LeeRosario]

100% with cloneboy

back in the day when bands WERE scared of the studio, before the mackie/adat or newer pt/conservatory price drop, it cost enough that they wouldnt be writing thier lyrics in the studio unless they were on a label budget

exactly. And it's still recommendable today. I wouldn't ever advise someone on a private buget to write in the studio. Whether it's my own or a capitol records studio A.

But I suppose as engineers, we should be aware that those types do exsist and we should be able to cater to them as well.

I frankly prefer to work with the type that likes to try different things, even if it takes some time. Just as long as it's moving foward. I can't stand when a train stops dead in it's tracks.

I think if anything, alot of the engineers I've met have a short fuse that works in some situations, just not on a local level. Then again, there are engineers that bite many bullets and ride the wave to the shore.

But of course, I don't think any engineer in this world who diserves top notch material wouldn't be annoyed with someone who just lags in the studio.

Frustration goes both ways.

 

[Cloneboy Studio]

But of course, I don't think any engineer in this world who diserves top notch material wouldn't be annoyed with someone who just lags in the studio.

It's not really about lagging, it's about INCOMPETENCE.

This further begs the question of people delusional about their lack of commitment, talent or both. Then again, if judging by American Idol's tryouts people *ARE* very delusional about their level of musical talent.

 

[LeeRosario]

Then again, if judging by American Idol's tryouts people *ARE* very delusional about their level of musical talent.

Tooshay on that.


Rockstar energy drinks, American Idol, that new rock star video game that just game out, rock star toys for kids, commercials of kids hoping to be rock stars, tax breaks for kids who buy rock star shit...it was only a matter of time before the stimulants kick in.



Hell, now I feel like a rock star. Time to write that hit single, "I used to grace the homerecording forums and now I wanna grace the cover of Rolling Stone"

 

[dkerwood]

Then again, if judging by American Idol's tryouts people *ARE* very delusional about their level of musical talent.

Quite honestly, many of the professional musicians in the world today (especially the MTV type) wouldn't get past the tryouts for "Idol".

 

[Cloneboy Studio]

Quite honestly, many of the professional musicians in the world today (especially the MTV type) wouldn't get past the tryouts for "Idol".

What like Madonna? Hehehhe....

I know you're right, but some people are SO GODAWFUL that it's pathetic... I mean, Autotune won't help them, all the compression in the world won't help them, you'd have to hire a ghost singer and Milli Vanilli 'em.