ez_willis
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RideTheCrash said:
Is it possible to overdrive a converter?
That may be where I'm not getting it. I thought it was either clipping or not, and that there was no 'sweet spot' of an a/d or d/a converter.
Is it possible to overdrive a converter?
That may be where I'm not getting it. I thought it was either clipping or not, and that there was no 'sweet spot' of an a/d or d/a converter.
X
xstatic
New member
There are converters that offer different types of "soft limiting" that can be utilized to change the sound of a converter, but that can be a pretty fine line if you are trying to stay in that range.
I think the misconception here is that the digital level is what is being referred to when talking about how hot to track. Really, the most important thing here is not to think about the digital level, but more about what is happening BEFORE the conversion. In order to get a digital converter (24 bit at least and properly calibrated) to clip then you are hitting your ANALOG front end VERY hard. This is where Ride The Crash's theory seems wrong to me. I say screw the converters sweet spot. Nowadays that sweet spot is pretty darned wide. What I would be more concerned with is staying within your preamp's sweet spot. If you do that, you will very rarely have to worry about a digital over.
I think the misconception here is that the digital level is what is being referred to when talking about how hot to track. Really, the most important thing here is not to think about the digital level, but more about what is happening BEFORE the conversion. In order to get a digital converter (24 bit at least and properly calibrated) to clip then you are hitting your ANALOG front end VERY hard. This is where Ride The Crash's theory seems wrong to me. I say screw the converters sweet spot. Nowadays that sweet spot is pretty darned wide. What I would be more concerned with is staying within your preamp's sweet spot. If you do that, you will very rarely have to worry about a digital over.
FALKEN
*************************
yeah you can overdrive a converter...but its not going to sound like overdrive...just think about this for a second. say your converter has a 96db audible range. if you are recording up to -.1 db, you are using ALL of your resources. you can't sprint a marathon. you have to leave some room at all stages in the game. think of it this way. on a small mixer master fader, the 0db point is usually around 3/4 up. if you put it all the way up it sounds like crap. the same kind of technology is in your converter.
Steve Henningsgard
New member
More on 16 vs. 24 bit (semi on-topic and a decent read!):
http://www.tweakheadz.com/16_vs_24_bit_audio.htm
http://www.tweakheadz.com/16_vs_24_bit_audio.htm
elly-d
Member
in my experience i have always recorded as loud as possible before clipping. you can always turn the fader down in the mix, but you can't always go up enough (i found myself using ultramaximiser alot). when setting a level just whack the drums harder than your ever gonna when playing the song, then set your level. you should be fine then. if not and it clips, play it again. not very pro i know, and if i was getting paid to record someone else i guess i would wimp out of this tactic. 
X
xstatic
New member
elly-d said:in my experience i have always recorded as loud as possible before clipping. you can always turn the fader down in the mix, but you can't always go up enough (i found myself using ultramaximiser alot). when setting a level just whack the drums harder than your ever gonna when playing the song, then set your level. you should be fine then. if not and it clips, play it again. not very pro i know, and if i was getting paid to record someone else i guess i would wimp out of this tactic.
You should really try recording at proper levels some time. there is no reason that can't go louder but going quieter may be detrimental as well. First off, recording a track with a peak of -1dbfs is NOT the same as recording a track at -9 dbfs and then normalizing it's peak value to -1. The first track will almost undoubtably be muddier and narrower in bandwidth and have the imnpression of being "smaller". The second track, once mormalized will be the same in volume, but will retain all of the original signal that it had in its recording. This has NOTHING to do with your converters, but EVERYTHING to do with proper gain staging in the analog realm. What this is however is an example of how you CAN turn up a track and STILL have detail. In the first scenario though the analog front end would be overdriving itself and would offer negative artifacts to the track. The second scenario would not have this problem and still be just as loud, possibly even seem louder.
O
ofajen
Daddy-O Daddy-O Baby
legionserial said:
OK, I've accepted the fact that this message will have to be repeated over and over again...
First, 0 VU in an analog stage is not the clipping level. It's the reference signal level where the operator will set an averaging meter to read on forte signal peaks. When I set my analog reference level at -20 dBFS, that leaves 20 dB of headroom above that reference level. In my experience, that is just enough in most tracking and mixing situations to make sure that my instantaneous peaks don't reach 0 dBFS.
But here are the important points:
Instantaneous peaks provide very little indication about perceived signal loudness.
Set your levels using an average-measured reference level, leave yourself adequate headroom and then ignore peak levels entirely, so long as they don't go over.
Remember, instantaneous peaks provide very little indication about perceived signal loudness. Average-measured signal levels tell you how much meat is on the bone, so to speak.
As an aside, note also that if 0 VU corresponds to +4 dBu, and 0 VU is also -20 dBFS, then 0 dBFS is, obviously, +24 dBu.
+4 dBu is fine as a reference signal level in pro studios with only high clip point gear with voltage rails at +28V or +39V and clip points of +28 dBu and tape that only allows 14 dB of crest factor above the reference level, leaving perhaps 10 dB of "cushion" between the loudest peaks and the analog clip points.
Nowadays, the crest factor on digital tracks can be 20 dB, and the clip points of a lot of gear in the home recording world clips below +24 dBu, (RNC clips at +22.5 dBu, for example) and that gear probably starts to sound ugly at 6 dB below the clip point.
So, +4 dBu may be too high a reference level in a home situation with digital recording. If you want the cleanest, most transparent tracks your gear is capable of, plan your gain staging and signal levels accordingly.
Cheers,
Otto
X
xstatic
New member
Sounds like what I have been saying over and over and over and over....
Plus a little extra....
Plus a little extra....
R
RAMI
Guest
That's what usually happens before someone finally gets it.xstatic said:
elly-d
Member
thanks xstatic, i will try recording at a lower level and see if i can hear the difference. i have always got a decent sound and if it will be improved by this its worth a go. but all those yellow and red lights are very pretty aren't they?
S
scorpio01169
New member
if you get your input levels just below peak and never reach clipping, and your recording levels at a decent level you'll be fine.
ez_willis
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scorpio01169 said:
No. You want your peaks way below level.
I'm still not clear as to why, but you just do.
R
RAMI
Guest
I thought it was made clear a few different ways.
From what I always understood, and seemed to be re-inforced in the recent thread was this:
Besides the fact that you're not losing any quality by keeping your signal lower when working with 2 bit...It's not desireable to run up around zero when recording in 2bit digital because if you're coming in over -18 on your digital recorder (whatever that might be), then it means that somewhere along the line, you're running one of your analog pieces too high. That doesn't mean it WILL sound bad. It means you probably didn't gain stage correctly and have more of a chance of it not sounding as good as it should.
From what I always understood, and seemed to be re-inforced in the recent thread was this:
Besides the fact that you're not losing any quality by keeping your signal lower when working with 2 bit...It's not desireable to run up around zero when recording in 2bit digital because if you're coming in over -18 on your digital recorder (whatever that might be), then it means that somewhere along the line, you're running one of your analog pieces too high. That doesn't mean it WILL sound bad. It means you probably didn't gain stage correctly and have more of a chance of it not sounding as good as it should.
ez_willis
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RAMI said:
I think I failed to mention(
) that I am recording myself playing drums in the same room that the mixer is in. It's impossible to be alone recording drums and find and keep the peaks in the right spot. If the signal isn't clipping then I'm happy. 
Dogman
Unkle Ticklefingers
Cuz I said so asshat....ez_willis said:No. You want your peaks way below level.
I'm still not clear as to why, but you just do.
X
xstatic
New member
scorpio01169 said:
This seems to be a common misconception. If people would quit worrying so much about their digital levels and pay attention to the analog signal they are creating, tracks wqould never be in any real danger of clipping, and they would all sound better.