T.J.Hooker
New member
Hey Dudes and Dudets, Say I wanted to record my drums. I want each drum on it's own track. Do I need a seperate gate for each drum(mic)? Thanx, T.
recording drums
- Thread starter T.J.Hooker
- Start date
bvaleria
New member
I've worked with ungated drum tracks before (clients having recorded drums in other studios, then coming to me...) and it is A BITCH (but not impossible!) to try and clean up bleed-thru after the fact. Much better to gate individual mics as you're tracking the kit, if at all possible....
Bruce Valeriani
Blue Bear Sound
Bruce Valeriani
Blue Bear Sound
sonusman
Banned
Another option...
I agree more or less with Shailat about generally not wanting to gate the drums while tracking. Most because of the fact that if the gate clips off resonance, there is not way possible to gain that resonance back while mixing. Plus, if the tom or snare hit wasn't sufficiently loud enough to open the gate then you lose the drum hit on the recording, and THAT is a bitch to try to put back in after the fact. Basically, you would have to sample another hit of the same drum and use a digital editor and add it in. If the hit was during a fast drum fill, forget it, it probably won't sound natural at all.
But, I have successfully tracked drums with gates using drum triggers to open the gates, and making sure that the hold and release times on the gate were set very long to assure that I don't clip the resonance. This has worked very well for me with some drummers, on others it didn't work so well. The triggers have the advantage of utilizing the Threshold of the gate in a much different way. Bleed from a overly hot snare in a tom mic will not open the tom's gate if you are using triggers to open the gate. This helps assure that no false triggers will open the gate.
Good luck.
Ed
I agree more or less with Shailat about generally not wanting to gate the drums while tracking. Most because of the fact that if the gate clips off resonance, there is not way possible to gain that resonance back while mixing. Plus, if the tom or snare hit wasn't sufficiently loud enough to open the gate then you lose the drum hit on the recording, and THAT is a bitch to try to put back in after the fact. Basically, you would have to sample another hit of the same drum and use a digital editor and add it in. If the hit was during a fast drum fill, forget it, it probably won't sound natural at all.
But, I have successfully tracked drums with gates using drum triggers to open the gates, and making sure that the hold and release times on the gate were set very long to assure that I don't clip the resonance. This has worked very well for me with some drummers, on others it didn't work so well. The triggers have the advantage of utilizing the Threshold of the gate in a much different way. Bleed from a overly hot snare in a tom mic will not open the tom's gate if you are using triggers to open the gate. This helps assure that no false triggers will open the gate.
Good luck.
Ed
T.J.Hooker
New member
That's Awsome how do I do This
Hey These are all great ideas I thank you all very much. I especially like sonusmans response. Is there a book or peice of literature I can get that explains this procedure in greater detail, Or would you suggest trial and error.That's how I've learned everything else, but it's very time consuming on a solo project if you know what I mean. What kind of triggers do you use , Midi triggers?
Thanx Alot, T.
Hey These are all great ideas I thank you all very much. I especially like sonusmans response. Is there a book or peice of literature I can get that explains this procedure in greater detail, Or would you suggest trial and error.That's how I've learned everything else, but it's very time consuming on a solo project if you know what I mean. What kind of triggers do you use , Midi triggers?
Thanx Alot, T.
Using the Ext. Key
I think what sonusman is suggesting (please let me know if I am wrong
is by having a trigger on let say the snare. This would be connected to the key input of the snare's gate. The snare mic is then connected to the input of the gate channel. When the trigger detects the sound (and the external key is selected) this causes the gate to open then close to whatever you have adjusted it to. This would be a much "safer" way to gate your drums because you can focus on the mic'd sound get that how you want it, then switch to key listen and get the key to work correctly. (eg. threshold, attack, hold, release )
FYI. You can also use this in a mixing application. Use a mult of lets say the kick drum. Plug that into the key input of a gate. Run a 40hz tone into the input of the gate. Now every time the kick drum is hit the gate is opened and a burst of 40hz goes through. You can really beef-up a poorly recorded or weak sounding kick drum. Other things to try are "keying" a snare drum mult and and sending white or pink noise through the gate. Or you can tighten a bass and kick by having the kick drum mult be the key input and a bass mult going into the gate. Use the gated bass sound for the attack on the bass and have your non-gated bass track do the rest of the playing. You'll need to play with the settings but your bass and kick will be locked.
If I have done a poor job with the details just reply to this and I'll get back to you.
j
I think what sonusman is suggesting (please let me know if I am wrong
is by having a trigger on let say the snare. This would be connected to the key input of the snare's gate. The snare mic is then connected to the input of the gate channel. When the trigger detects the sound (and the external key is selected) this causes the gate to open then close to whatever you have adjusted it to. This would be a much "safer" way to gate your drums because you can focus on the mic'd sound get that how you want it, then switch to key listen and get the key to work correctly. (eg. threshold, attack, hold, release )FYI. You can also use this in a mixing application. Use a mult of lets say the kick drum. Plug that into the key input of a gate. Run a 40hz tone into the input of the gate. Now every time the kick drum is hit the gate is opened and a burst of 40hz goes through. You can really beef-up a poorly recorded or weak sounding kick drum. Other things to try are "keying" a snare drum mult and and sending white or pink noise through the gate. Or you can tighten a bass and kick by having the kick drum mult be the key input and a bass mult going into the gate. Use the gated bass sound for the attack on the bass and have your non-gated bass track do the rest of the playing. You'll need to play with the settings but your bass and kick will be locked.
If I have done a poor job with the details just reply to this and I'll get back to you.
j
bvaleria
New member
Sheesh guys... I didn't think I had to mention that I'd set gates during tracking only enough so that I don't lose or cut-off any notes!! 
When I do track with gates, I'm primarily interested in a clean snare and kick - the rest of the kit usually takes care of itself without gating........
Bruce
When I do track with gates, I'm primarily interested in a clean snare and kick - the rest of the kit usually takes care of itself without gating........
Bruce
Shailat
New member
bvaleria said:Sheesh guys... I didn't think I had to mention that I'd set gates during tracking only enough so that I don't lose or cut-off any notes!!
Ahhh but the resonance plays an important part as well.Not just the notes.
I'm sure you mean that as well.
I find it hard to decide during tracking to make desicions on how exactly will my snare sound before I have all the tracks laid in front of me.
The only place I would track (other then using a trigger). with a gate would be if I don't own enough gates and would need more then I have during the mix.
Then I would consider using a gate to free it up.
John Sayers
Solar Power!!
I'm with Ed and Shailat - I don't gate till the mix then I use automation on the toms instead of gates. I'll gate the kick and snare but only in the mix so I know I've got then set right. Plus I'd probably use a sample for kick anyway.
Cheers
John
Cheers
John
Shailat
New member
John,
I'm curious as why youtend to use a sample anywhy?.
You mean triggering a sample instead of the original correct?
I use a sample when I just can't work with what I have. But remember the dynamics are not in a sample. Every kick would be the same velocity.
Doesn't that bother you?
I'm curious as why youtend to use a sample anywhy?.
You mean triggering a sample instead of the original correct?
I use a sample when I just can't work with what I have. But remember the dynamics are not in a sample. Every kick would be the same velocity.
Doesn't that bother you?
T.J.Hooker
New member
Here's My Plan
Man, you guys sure know alot about gating. How many gates would you say one should have on hand in the average studio ?
I have a five piece drumset. Maybe I should allocate six tracks for six mics. Snare, kick, mounted toms, floor tom, Hi Hats, And overhead for cymbals and ambience. Would you guys agree or is that maybe overkill. I'll do more I'm crazy with this shit, whatever sounds best, but that's in my own head I guess. I would like to set it up so it's all set all the time just plugin and play. I'm runnin a mac system with cakewalks metro. The metro is kind of cumbersome and limited, but it was a good deal, and I was eager to get started. I am hopefully soon going to upgrade to MOTU'S 1224 system. That should be big help. Thanks alot guys, T.
Man, you guys sure know alot about gating. How many gates would you say one should have on hand in the average studio ?
I have a five piece drumset. Maybe I should allocate six tracks for six mics. Snare, kick, mounted toms, floor tom, Hi Hats, And overhead for cymbals and ambience. Would you guys agree or is that maybe overkill. I'll do more I'm crazy with this shit, whatever sounds best, but that's in my own head I guess. I would like to set it up so it's all set all the time just plugin and play. I'm runnin a mac system with cakewalks metro. The metro is kind of cumbersome and limited, but it was a good deal, and I was eager to get started. I am hopefully soon going to upgrade to MOTU'S 1224 system. That should be big help. Thanks alot guys, T.
kristian
New member
sh1t dude.
i always though that gating and compression was bad during tracking? i dont see how you couldnt gate during mixdown unless you are micing from miles away. ive never actaully mixed down with a gate (behringer multigate soon though hopefully, its getting close to the top of the want list) but kick, toms, and snare are all pretty closely miced and the difference between left rack tom and right rack tom in the left rack tom mic is pretty significat in dB from what my meters say. or are gates supposed to be used a waAAAAAAAaay lower dB. which thresholds do you usually run yours at? and T.J. i dont think its common to gate overheads because if you are looking for ambience its supposed to pick up room echo all the time.
i always though that gating and compression was bad during tracking? i dont see how you couldnt gate during mixdown unless you are micing from miles away. ive never actaully mixed down with a gate (behringer multigate soon though hopefully, its getting close to the top of the want list) but kick, toms, and snare are all pretty closely miced and the difference between left rack tom and right rack tom in the left rack tom mic is pretty significat in dB from what my meters say. or are gates supposed to be used a waAAAAAAAaay lower dB. which thresholds do you usually run yours at? and T.J. i dont think its common to gate overheads because if you are looking for ambience its supposed to pick up room echo all the time.
T.J.Hooker
New member
Righto!
That's correct Kristian, I would not gate overhead.
That's correct Kristian, I would not gate overhead.
T.J.Hooker
New member
Re: Using the Ext. Key
jamiecer said:I think what sonusman is suggesting (please let me know if I am wrong
What do the triggers consist of and where can I find them ? Are these midi triggers?
T.
John Sayers
Solar Power!!
Shailat - I've been doing country mainly recently and I find adding a sample is tighter. I trigger off the kick with a D5 and record the midi version in a sequencer.
I can then go through the midi and remove the bad or missed triggers and I can also adjust the velocity.
I then line up the midi version with the original and advance the midi track (to make up for the trigger delay) so the two tracks phase. I can then mix them together with the sample adding the edge and punch and the original the body and air of you know what I mean.
Cheers
John
I can then go through the midi and remove the bad or missed triggers and I can also adjust the velocity.
I then line up the midi version with the original and advance the midi track (to make up for the trigger delay) so the two tracks phase. I can then mix them together with the sample adding the edge and punch and the original the body and air of you know what I mean.
Cheers
John
sonusman
Banned
T.J.Hooker...
The triggers are ones you can buy (very expensive usually) or the ones you can make for yourself with a quick trip to Radio Shack and about $20!
Purchase their little Piezo tweeter dealy. It is a buzzer thing that is used on doors in businesses, etc....You have heard them before I am sure.
But that little speaker makes one hell of a microphone! Of course microphones and speakers are essentially the same thing and a speaker can be used as a microphone (I great story I have for that, I may even share it one day... ). Anyway....
The Piezo has three wires coming off of it. Red, Black, Blue. Cut the blue wire, it is not needed.
Now, you also purchased a regular old 1/4" connector, a TS (tip sleeve) not TRS (tip ring sleeve, or stereo connector). It is the connector on a guitar cable.
Now, solder Red to tip, and Black to sleeve. Presto! You now have a trigger. Yes, if you have a midi device like a D-4 that accepts 1/4" input sources, you can use this trigger and any surface to produce the signal to excite a sound in the tone module....
Plug that bad boy into the Key input of the gate (like said above by jamiecer....) and attach the trigger to the top head of the drum in question. Make sure to do it at the edge of the drum!!!
Now, you may have to use some two sided tape to keep her on there. Buy the EXPENSIVE, BEST double sided tape you can find, because if that trigger is on a floor tom that is tuned to resonate, that head vibration is going to pop that trigger right off the head during the drummers best take of a song! It never fails. And without that trigger on there, the tom signal is never going to make it to tape.
Anyway. Once you have it affixed to the drum head, the way to set the trigger is as follows.
Hit every other drum on the kit and adjust the Threshold of the gate until none of them will trigger the gate. Yes, even with triggers other drums can produce enough vibration on the said drum head to open the gate, so you must still carefully set the Threshold. Now, once no other drums are triggering the gate on said trigger, very lightly tap the drum in question. The gate should open to the slightest hit! If it doesn't, hit it just a hair harder. You may need to play a bit with the Threshold to get everything working well. If the drummer hits hard, then don't worry if the gate don't open with he hits the drum really lightly because as long as it opens with his "average" hit, you are in the game. But, you should still set the lowest threshold setting possible to assure that every time the drummer hits that drum that the gate opens via the trigger, but, that other drums do not open the gate via that trigger.
Make sure that you set longer then you think you may need Hold and Release times on the gate. With snares, you will want the "ping" of the snare to get to tape. On toms, you want a full resonance.
Actually though, John has the best idea for gating, using mute automation if you have it. This is much more reliable, and can be edited whenever you want. Also, it assures that you get the full drum sound to tape, and you are just gating during mix down.
There are countless (okay, maybe 4 or 5) other ways to simulate a noisegate at mix down time. These can include editing your tracks in a DAW and removing back ground noises between tom hits, and applying a fade out to the tom hit, to actually transferring the tom tracks to another track but only when they actually hit. I have has cases where the tom hits were so inconsistent that they needed constant level adjustment, so a gate would not work. Basically, I just run the tom tracks back into the console, and feed to console to new tracks, and adjust the volume of each hit one by one. I of course only engage record right before the tom hit (tricky to do) and disengage it after the hit has resonated. I must say that this is a last ditch thing to do, and I only use it when the tom tracks are just really horrible (I get stuff that was tracked at other studios and it isn't always pretty....). This is a very time consuming thing to do. Takes about 1-2 hours per song for three tracks of toms.
Anyway, trigger are sometimes appropriate during tracking, but mostly, you probably shouldn't use them. I think that if you play with your mic placement, and are using good mics and preamps, and have good monitors, you will find that in most cases the wide open drum sound is more pleasing to the ear.
Good luck.
Ed
The triggers are ones you can buy (very expensive usually) or the ones you can make for yourself with a quick trip to Radio Shack and about $20!
Purchase their little Piezo tweeter dealy. It is a buzzer thing that is used on doors in businesses, etc....You have heard them before I am sure.
But that little speaker makes one hell of a microphone! Of course microphones and speakers are essentially the same thing and a speaker can be used as a microphone (I great story I have for that, I may even share it one day...
). Anyway....The Piezo has three wires coming off of it. Red, Black, Blue. Cut the blue wire, it is not needed.
Now, you also purchased a regular old 1/4" connector, a TS (tip sleeve) not TRS (tip ring sleeve, or stereo connector). It is the connector on a guitar cable.
Now, solder Red to tip, and Black to sleeve. Presto! You now have a trigger. Yes, if you have a midi device like a D-4 that accepts 1/4" input sources, you can use this trigger and any surface to produce the signal to excite a sound in the tone module....
Plug that bad boy into the Key input of the gate (like said above by jamiecer....) and attach the trigger to the top head of the drum in question. Make sure to do it at the edge of the drum!!!
Now, you may have to use some two sided tape to keep her on there. Buy the EXPENSIVE, BEST double sided tape you can find, because if that trigger is on a floor tom that is tuned to resonate, that head vibration is going to pop that trigger right off the head during the drummers best take of a song! It never fails. And without that trigger on there, the tom signal is never going to make it to tape.
Anyway. Once you have it affixed to the drum head, the way to set the trigger is as follows.
Hit every other drum on the kit and adjust the Threshold of the gate until none of them will trigger the gate. Yes, even with triggers other drums can produce enough vibration on the said drum head to open the gate, so you must still carefully set the Threshold. Now, once no other drums are triggering the gate on said trigger, very lightly tap the drum in question. The gate should open to the slightest hit! If it doesn't, hit it just a hair harder. You may need to play a bit with the Threshold to get everything working well. If the drummer hits hard, then don't worry if the gate don't open with he hits the drum really lightly because as long as it opens with his "average" hit, you are in the game. But, you should still set the lowest threshold setting possible to assure that every time the drummer hits that drum that the gate opens via the trigger, but, that other drums do not open the gate via that trigger.
Make sure that you set longer then you think you may need Hold and Release times on the gate. With snares, you will want the "ping" of the snare to get to tape. On toms, you want a full resonance.
Actually though, John has the best idea for gating, using mute automation if you have it. This is much more reliable, and can be edited whenever you want. Also, it assures that you get the full drum sound to tape, and you are just gating during mix down.
There are countless (okay, maybe 4 or 5) other ways to simulate a noisegate at mix down time. These can include editing your tracks in a DAW and removing back ground noises between tom hits, and applying a fade out to the tom hit, to actually transferring the tom tracks to another track but only when they actually hit. I have has cases where the tom hits were so inconsistent that they needed constant level adjustment, so a gate would not work. Basically, I just run the tom tracks back into the console, and feed to console to new tracks, and adjust the volume of each hit one by one. I of course only engage record right before the tom hit (tricky to do) and disengage it after the hit has resonated. I must say that this is a last ditch thing to do, and I only use it when the tom tracks are just really horrible (I get stuff that was tracked at other studios and it isn't always pretty....
). This is a very time consuming thing to do. Takes about 1-2 hours per song for three tracks of toms.Anyway, trigger are sometimes appropriate during tracking, but mostly, you probably shouldn't use them. I think that if you play with your mic placement, and are using good mics and preamps, and have good monitors, you will find that in most cases the wide open drum sound is more pleasing to the ear.
Good luck.
Ed
T.J.Hooker
New member
Re: T.J.Hooker...
Boy! Thanx alot Ed. I hope your typing hand isn't sore, and I look forward to hearing that story. Hey if I remember correctly I think I heard once about someone making triggers with headphone speakers. Well anyway, when you say "the wide open drum sound", do you mean like, one carefully miked stereo track ?
Because I have had decent luck with that, I just always strive to do better. Or always look for more flexibility at mixdown. Maybe I'll just gate the snare and kick with thre drum tracks. Even if I can't get the results I am seeking, I am eager to try the trigger deal. Just because it sounds cool. Thanks alot dudes! T.J.Hooker
sonusman said:
Boy! Thanx alot Ed. I hope your typing hand isn't sore, and I look forward to hearing that story. Hey if I remember correctly I think I heard once about someone making triggers with headphone speakers. Well anyway, when you say "the wide open drum sound", do you mean like, one carefully miked stereo track ?
Because I have had decent luck with that, I just always strive to do better. Or always look for more flexibility at mixdown. Maybe I'll just gate the snare and kick with thre drum tracks. Even if I can't get the results I am seeking, I am eager to try the trigger deal. Just because it sounds cool. Thanks alot dudes! T.J.Hooker
sonusman
Banned
Sure....
I suppose that is the one. Hell, I just know what they look like and grab a handfull before a drum session where I will be using triggers. They get abused, so always keep extras on hand. They are easy to change if you just wire a Black and Red wire to your TS connector then use some clips or tape to ajoin those wires to the piezo. (a sonusman trick! Don't anyone accuse me of not sharing tricks...)
Ed
I suppose that is the one. Hell, I just know what they look like and grab a handfull before a drum session where I will be using triggers.
They get abused, so always keep extras on hand. They are easy to change if you just wire a Black and Red wire to your TS connector then use some clips or tape to ajoin those wires to the piezo. (a sonusman trick! Don't anyone accuse me of not sharing tricks...)Ed