Recording Drums: 4 Channels and 6 Mics. How Would You Handle It?

[JG96]

Dug Dog: This is the only technique I listed that I have experience with. Its a good approach when the drummer hits the drums rarely. But if the drummer is riding the floor tom in sections of the songs and whatnot its just not worth the work. And the kick, snare, overhead approach sounds pretty darn good but my drummer has a loud set of cymbals and I am already using the glyn johns approach so I don't know how to get a bit more toms in there without drowning the songs on cymbals.

 

[RAMI]

I don't know how to get a bit more toms in there without drowning the songs on cymbals.

I use 4 mics in the Glyn Johns (sort of). What I do to get isolated toms is copy my overhead track, and then cut out everything but the toms. I now have a stereo tom track I can do whatever I want with.

 

[bouldersoundguy]

And the kick, snare, overhead approach sounds pretty darn good but my drummer has a loud set of cymbals and I am already using the glyn johns approach so I don't know how to get a bit more toms in there without drowning the songs on cymbals.

That's a playing issue, not an engineering issue. His cymbals are too loud or he's playing them too hard. If a guitarist was playing some notes much louder than others would you tell him to play more evenly or spend your time trying to mic his amp differently?

 

[JG96]

That's a playing issue, not an engineering issue. His cymbals are too loud or he's playing them too hard. If a guitarist was playing some notes much louder than others would you tell him to play more evenly or spend your time trying to mic his amp differently?

That's a good point, his crash, ride and hats are all sabian b8's. They don't sound bad but B8 bronze is pretty darn loud even when hit gently in comparison to drums. I guess next time around some cymbal borrowing may need to be done.

 

[grimtraveller]

So recently my band started recording bass, guitar and drums simultaneously. I am used to recording drums with 6 mics and I like the sound it yields but it does not top the sound of a live performance. Unfortunately my interface only has 6 channels. These are my potential solutions:
A. Route the tom mics with the overheads

What would/wouldn't you do?

This is what I do. I use 9 mics {2 O/H, kick, snare, 5 toms} but use four channels in the DAW so I route the toms and overheads via a mixer and set my panning and levels there then feed them into the DAW on 2 tracks. The kick and snare have their own track.
I've found it works quite nicely.
I also put the overheads under the height of the cymbals so I don't get wild loud cymbal spillage.

 

[dug dog]

Dug Dog: This is the only technique I listed that I have experience with. Its a good approach when the drummer hits the drums rarely. But if the drummer is riding the floor tom in sections of the songs and whatnot its just not worth the work. And the kick, snare, overhead approach sounds pretty darn good but my drummer has a loud set of cymbals and I am already using the glyn johns approach so I don't know how to get a bit more toms in there without drowning the songs on cymbals.

Does the timing of the tracks recorded on the Zoom wander all over the place over the course of a single song? I haven't tried it yet but I figured you'd get them lined up at the beginning of the tune and you MIGHT have to make some small adjustments toward the end of that song which would just be a matter of sliding the Zoom tracks left or right a little bit.

 

[bouldersoundguy]

Does the timing of the tracks recorded on the Zoom wander all over the place over the course of a single song? I haven't tried it yet but I figured you'd get them lined up at the beginning of the tune and you MIGHT have to make some small adjustments toward the end of that song which would just be a matter of sliding the Zoom tracks left or right a little bit.

Most digital clocks are pretty dang accurate. I routinely fly in audio and video from different sources, like my HD24 (running at 48kHz) and my old Sony D8 camcorder. It seems I can sync the tracks at the beginning of the files and it stays right for as much as an hour, maybe more. I would think worst case you should be able to do a song without audible drift, and more likely an hour or more.

The HD24 is a special case because at 44.1kHz the clock is known to be inaccurate, so I always use it at 48kHz.

 

[JG96]

Thats interesting about 48 kHZ. I usually use 44.1 kHz just because that is the only way my interface allows latency free monitoring. But if it really lines up that much better that would be nice. I have to line up the toms at the beginning of the song but then again throughout the song at 44.1. The zoom can record 4 tracks at once which means I could probably lay down lead guitar and a room mic at the same time too if it is so accurate. Next time around Ill give 48 kHz a shot!

 

[bouldersoundguy]

The problem with 44.1 is specific to the Alesis HD24, not something common to all devices. Use whatever sampling frequency works for you.

 

[JG96]

Aw shucks I guess thats the problem with reading things at 2 Am. The drift between the two is not audible, its just a variation in phase coherence I fear. Grimtraveler: I'm interested in your approach to overheads. By under the cymbals do you mean like a room mic in close proximity. What is your placement like in that position? XY, Spaced Pair. Has anyone tried playing the tom mics into a PA so they bleed into the overheads?

 

[BrentDomann]

I also put the overheads under the height of the cymbals so I don't get wild loud cymbal spillage.

Don't put them near the cymbal edges, though! As the cymbals rock you'll get weird phasey or swishy sounds.

 

[grimtraveller]

Don't put them near the cymbal edges, though! As the cymbals rock you'll get weird phasey or swishy sounds.

They don't go close to the cymbal's edge. That would defeat the object of not getting lots of cymbal sound.
Mind you, sometimes, those phasey and swishy sounds are pretty neat.Sometimes in the past, I've caught this deep resonant aftershock that hums and whirrs, menacingly. Great atmospheric sound, on the right song.

Grimtraveler: I'm interested in your approach to overheads. By under the cymbals do you mean like a room mic in close proximity. What is your placement like in that position? XY, Spaced Pair.

Whenever I've tried a room mic thingy, I've usually used that mic as a kind of super overhead, up high, pointing to the centre of the kit. I did once use a room mic placed in the back of a van {I was recording in the warehouse at work} and it picked up the entire kit {with a surprizingly good kick} better than any overheads I've ever managed !
The reason I place my overheads as I do is because the drummer that I play with the most, being young would sometimes get a bit wild and on occasion, was hitting the cymbals so hard that it overloaded the mics and I learned firsthand about the dreaded digital clipping. I also found that the cymbals used to be the dominant sound in the O/Hs, even though the mic wasn't close to them. But by putting the mics below the cymbals' height, they pick up the body of the drums and seem to level out the cymbals. They're never dominant anymore, no matter how wild the drummer gets {he has calmed somewhat !} but nicely balanced.
I don't use XY or spaced pair because I look for the drums to be centrered as opposed to dead centre. I'll usually pan the snare slightly to the right and the kick slightly to the left. So the overhead {well, underheads really} mics could be placed in a variety of ways. I might do one adjacent to the floor tom and the other slightly off the hi hat but under it's height. Or both might be in front of the drums, one to the right of the kit, the other to the left. I think I use variations of the Glyn Johns method without the precise measurements and with close miked toms fed in with the O/Hs. It sounds a little higgledy piggledy but it works for me. I've been very experimental with recording drums since I had more tracks to devote to them {I used to have a single track for drums} and I daresay, I'll get around to XY and spaced pairs and other ways at some point.

 

[witzendoz]

Funny how micing and recording drums quickly becomes rocket science, I feel very sorry for the newbies that want to know how to record drums

Alan.

 

[grimtraveller]

Funny how micing and recording drums quickly becomes rocket science, I feel very sorry for the newbies that want to know how to record drums

Part of the reason for my approach was that I didn't want complex bells and whistles. I just wanted to put the mics where I think they should go to pick up the kit and be done with it ! In truth, there are actually lots of ways to mic a drum kit, little variations but as ever, it comes down to what a person likes in terms of the sound and balancing all the little {or maybe not so little} variables.
For me, regardless, drums always end up sounding like........drums.

 

[witzendoz]

regardless, drums always end up sounding like........drums.

I think that was the point I was trying to make, the other was to keep it simple.

Alan.

 

[totenkopf]

I think that was the point I was trying to make, the other was to keep it simple.

Alan.

I agree; keep it simple. It seems to me the best alternative for the original question is to stick with four mics on the drums. It's all that's really necessary (arguably). That way they can track the bass and guitar at the same time. If you have a headphone amp that allows all of you to listen at the same time, you might put the amps in a separate room, or perhaps you could DI the bass to get another channel, but it's hard to be very specific without knowing how your room is set up and what the options are.

 

[JG96]

....you might put the amps in a separate room, or perhaps you could DI the bass to get another channel, but it's hard to be very specific without knowing how your room is set up and what the options are.

We are fortunate enough to have a walk in closet next to the live room for the guitar amp. I use my bass head to run the bass direct.