Recording distorted guitars... dead horse beaten again...

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cellardweller

cellardweller

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Sorry, I did a search and thought of resurrecting an old thread... but didn't

Recording distorted guitar through a 4X12 w/ SM57. Cab is 3 ft. off of the floor. I've played with the mic positioning endlessly, from 1/2 inch off the grill, to 6 inches away. From centered on the cone, angled, slowly moved outward. My distortion is cut about 50%-60%. Still, it always sounds thin, brittle, too many crappy highs.

Is this another instance of my ears playing tricks on me? Do I just need to get a "better" sound at the source? Granted, my gear is pretty cheap, but I've heard people do more with less...

Any suggestions?

sorry for kicking this dead horse again...
 
The rule is that the source has to sound good for the recording to sound good. Do you have it set up so it sounds the way you want? Or are you trying to tweak a bad sound into something good?
 
I guess what I meant was, is the mic "hearing" highs that I am incapable of hearing?

When I record with the amp sounding as I would normally have it set, it sounds like arse...
 
Thanks for the link, the page is loading as I type (damned dial-up).

I have an idea I am going to try. I have an SM57 and a 58. I've read that the two are very similar. Would I be better off micing two spots on the same speaker, or two different speakers entirely? It'd seem with two different speakers there may be some issue with phase, but I'm not sure...

*EDIT*

I remember when you wrote some of this in response to a post. I have printed this before, but I have serious gear/knowledge/space limitations, to where this seems inapplicable.
  • I have no seperate control room
  • No means of easily changing phase
  • No monkey (other than myself) to assist me
  • I did mention that my "gear" is limited, didn't I?

Thanks though, I will study this once again to see if I have missed something.
 
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what preamp? what are you recording to?

big things that you probably wouldn't expect:
a - turn your distortion down a bit from what you'd usually want.
b - turn up your mid more than you'd usually have it, sometimes a lot is needed for it all to stand trough sounding good in the final mix. it'll be worth it in the end.
also some stuff:
*towards the center = more highs/bright/crisp/terrible annoying distortion sounds if it's dead center most likely.
*towards the edge of the cone = muffled, darker, more low end.

find a happy medium. try about an inch off the grill angled somewhere in the middle, probably a little more towards the center.
 
shackrock said:
*towards the center = more highs/bright/crisp/terrible annoying distortion sounds if it's dead center most likely.
*towards the edge of the cone = muffled, darker, more low end.
Click to expand...

I often try to remember this, before trying placement, and instead have to re-remember it through trial and error (challenged short-term memory).

preamp is a mackie 808m head, into fostex mr8 (yes, I know it's pretty crappy). I have followed the manuals closely to observe correct gain structure. No eq(flat), no effects, etc..

Thanks for the pointers, this is printed and will be adhered to the side of my cab!

*YET ANOTHER EDIT*

I will try extreme amounts of mids. My amp is set to 5 (12 o'clock) on the mids. I will bump this up as well as my pedal's mids.
 
I don't know if this will help, but I placed the mic about 2 inches from the grill and centered it between the cone and the edge of the speaker. I used a unidirectional dynamic low z mic, and my mids were turned up, and I backed off on the highs. I didn't like the sound as I could here it, but damned if it didn't turn out great in the mix. I will find that song and post it and let you hear it if you want...
Eddie

As a side thought, because I used a unidirectional mic, it was pointed straight in...
good luck finding your tone. I know it's a bitch!
 
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Arghhhhhh....

Yep, I've always been the "classic" mid-scooper, until recently. I thought I'd added enough, though this seems not to be the case......
 
You can still pull it off with no separate control room, headphones are perfect. Also, just make a phase reverse cable. It'll work.
 
Sounds to me like a crummy amp or a really crappy mic pre, but probably the amp.
 
If your amp has a 'shape' control, turn it off! You can scoop the mids when you mix (that is how you get that sound, normally) if you do it at the amp nothing works right.
What kind of an amp is it? If it is a Crate solid state amp, give up.
 
Give us an mp3 clip of the guitar sounds, then I think suggestions would be more helpful.
 
I am no expert, but i use a 57 near to the middle of one speaker and a 58 near to the outside of another. (metallica used this) No phase issues here as both mics are the same distance from the grill (around 2 inch). And i use the middle of the left speaker and the left outside of the right speaker so the mics are quite close to each other. When mixing little EQ is really needed as you can mix the 57 and 58 (which were placed diferently) to get the desired tone. Roll off low and high of each channel (usually) Maybe add or takeaway some mid. If there is no low tone and it is all mid highs, add a bit of low mid. Not too much or it will end up real muddy sounding. Let the bass guitar have some low end room, but also some high mid. I usually mix bass and guitar together and then mix in with rest of tracks, so as bass and guitar arent fighting each other.
Just some of MY thoughts on this.
 
what kind of amp is it? what kind of speakers? what kind of guitar? what kind of distortion if any?
 
Ibanez RG series, Kramer, and an epi
Boss MT2 distortion pedal
Ampeg VT120 into peavey 4X12 w/sheffield speakers I think... (funny, I tried my old piece of crap Crate as well... :eek: :-)

Now don't drool on yourselves with envy, I know...some pretty high-end stuff! :rolleyes: Have to make do with what I have for now.
 
ecktronic said:
I am no expert, but i use a 57 near to the middle of one speaker and a 58 near to the outside of another. (metallica used this) No phase issues here as both mics are the same distance from the grill (around 2 inch). And i use the middle of the left speaker and the left outside of the right speaker so the mics are quite close to each other. When mixing little EQ is really needed as you can mix the 57 and 58 (which were placed diferently) to get the desired tone. Roll off low and high of each channel (usually) Maybe add or takeaway some mid. If there is no low tone and it is all mid highs, add a bit of low mid. Not too much or it will end up real muddy sounding. Let the bass guitar have some low end room, but also some high mid. I usually mix bass and guitar together and then mix in with rest of tracks, so as bass and guitar arent fighting each other.
Just some of MY thoughts on this.
Click to expand...
I am going to have to try this. I used the room mic technique with the other mic about 6 feet away and at ear level. I had some phase issues, but I managed them. I didn't like the overall sound of it, and I think it was because of the room I recorded it in (wasn't a studio....). I will let you know what happens.
 
yup

I have that pedal and it may be the problem. I love the tone it gives me when i'm in the room with the amp, but it is very hard to make it record "right".
Some suggestions-
1) don't pay much attention to bass response when comparing (A/B-ing) mics and positionings. What you need to establish is a smooth and righteous upper mids and treble sound.

2) definitely don't add more highs or lows than you have to on the amp and pedal. This creates radical transients that we can't hear, but the mic can.

3) try miking from a few inches back and a little more off axis than whatever is your current best setup.

4) Finally, try a different distortion source (tube amp, new pedal etc) I know it sounds defeating, but anything that is loud and in the room with you generally will sound HEAVY and MENACING. It is harder to fool microphones and speakers. As a matter of fact, what the mics hear is closer to what most of your audience hears at a live show, if thet aren't right on the stage.


Hope i helped....

BTW- I still exclusively use that(metal zone) pedal, but I must go to extreme lengths when recording to make it sound perfect. My latest method---use a room mic and pan it away from the close mic. Rule of thumb- my distant mic is normally a condenser and is at least 7 feet away and pointing away from the amp. This adds depth and realism, sometimes giving you that "wow, that's what i was hearing" sound.
 
Well that explains much! I've heard people poo-poo this pedal before, but I like it's sound and many others have given me that "what are you using for distortion" look of awe!

So are you suggesting I keep the pedal tone controls aroung 12 o'clock, to not 'add' any highs or lows? What control parameters have you found effective with the MT2 metalzone?

BTW, I did try (*mic*)from 1-6 inches back, and did not like the results. I'm pretty sure this is probably due to my room....

*=edit
 
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