recording classical guitar

Now it's sounding over EQ boosted to me, too harsh. I did a hi shelf at 1800hz and a wide boost centered around 200, both up at +9db, and then the boost11 thing (just a touch) also. Too much? I'm afraid even if the music was perfect the listener would get sound fatigued.

I'm going to fiddle around with a slightly deeper mic placement (24") and less aggressive EQ and see where that takes it.

-k
 
i think the quality is good. i like that you are getting a little room; it works.


you definitely should play around with the eq. the high helf does not make sense to me, nor does the huge boost at 200. just for example, try no shelf (if anything i would consider a boost at 16k), a small boost at the very bottom, scoop out a little around 250, and play around with boosts or cuts at 1-2k, 5k (to add or substract percussive effect).
 
zinc1024 said:
Now it's sounding over EQ boosted to me, too harsh. I did a hi shelf at 1800hz and a wide boost centered around 200, both up at +9db, and then the boost11 thing (just a touch) also. Too much? I'm afraid even if the music was perfect the listener would get sound fatigued.

I'm going to fiddle around with a slightly deeper mic placement (24") and less aggressive EQ and see where that takes it.-k
Click to expand...


I would use mic placement, not eq, to get the sound I want. Work at it. You don't have to use XY, there are other options: ORTF, spaced pair combos, one mic at neck joint and one over the right shoulder technique, etc.
 
Sound check please...

<Sor Study #1 on www.garageband.com at kevin d. morgan>

Here's try #2, where I've backed off the mic another 10" (to about 24"), and shifted to an Slim's EQ scheme, done lightly (boosts of only 1.5-2db).

Also, I've refined the reverb to be more subtle.

How's that coming along? Sounds fresher and more pleasant to me.

Oh yea...go to www.garageband.com, search for kevin d. morgan, click on songs, and select:

Sor Study #1


-Kevin
 
Hi Kevin,

You're off to a nice start on the recordings, and the Sor #1 C major is the best one so far (IMHO). The classical guitar has to be one of the hardest instruments to play as well as to record. It would be helpful to hear something without any processing whatsoever.

If you find yourself resorting to extreme adjustments in eq, your mic placement probably needs adjustment. Lately I find myself using a pair of LDCs in an xy about 12-18 inches from the 12th fret. To my ears, this placement offers body without compromising clarity - really important in any contrapuntal texture.

I did alot of looking around before settling on a reverb as well - I also use Sonar and the stock reverb isn't the greatest for classical music. You might try out a decent convolution reverb. I've had nice results with Tascam Gigapulse, as well as SIR (which as far as I know can still be had for free).

As far as compression goes, remember that what you're actually doing is squishing your dynamic range. How much (if any) do you really need?

R
 
'Kay, I like the raw version better. Somehow, it sounds less congested that the processed one to my ear. I still would mess a bit with mic placement to help to clear up the mids. Sorry, I know I'm playing a real guessing game here since I have no idea of what your instrument sounds like, what you're doing with nails, room, etc... I hear alot of color in the mids and what sounds to me like new strings. Still think you should try moving the mics closer to the 12th fret and using a convolution reverb to create a sense of distance. What did you end up doing as far as setting levels?

R
 
I've put a raw version of Sor Study #1 down for comparison purposes.

And I've updated all the cuts to new versions with less hot mixes (although for some reason it takes them some delay to delete the old versions, so you might see two for awhile...). So the only difference is Sor #1 at 24" mic distance, and the others at about 16".

There is no compression on anything, old versions or new.

-k
 
Nice. The stereo image on the close mics is much better, and your mids sound clearer to me. Also, the dynamics of the new performances are much more apparent than on the Sor - things like the terraced dynamics of Brouwer 1 for instance which don't really benefit from undue compression. Did you change your mic placement or just the distance?

R
 
Good feedback Ralph, thanks. (And I see you've got serious credentials in this area too, that's cool!)

There's only a distance change, all recordings to date are in a vanilla XY at about the same height (maybe 3-4" above soundhole height). The Sor Study #1 was at 24", all the others, more like 16-18".

I guess it makes sense there'd be more stereo separation in the closer mic'ing. Interesting that you prefer the completely unprocessed version! Maybe I should experiment with no 'verb and only spare EQ'ing. I could also drop a version of two of the close mic'd tunes w/o any processing.

As for the levels, I'm just doing a check to make sure I've got a reasonably rich waveform, and am not too close to digital clipping on my loudest phrases, and lastly that the left and right channel waveforms are close in size (which is hard, given the enormous sensitivity of my Emu input faders).

The most important thing is you're convincing me to not give up on the closer mic placement yet; that's important since EQ and 'verb can be reworked an infinite # of times after the capture, while the mic placement is the mic placement for any given performance, and can't be changed later! I'm hankering to close down this side of things because I'd like to get focused on capturing more (and more serious) pieces, I just want to be sure I'm "getting it right" to enable a good end result before doing so!

-k
 
You're right. Mic placement is crucial and once its done its done. I'd still try an XY closer to the 12th fret rather than the soundhole. I've found that it seems to do a better job of capturing the whole instrument. Personal thing, of course...

Your levels are nice. Why compress at all? There's a phrase that's been thrown around here quite a bit that goes something like "compression is evil." Interesting thread (do a search here), and particularly worth checking out if you're into making a classical recording.

As for reverb, I use it all the time, I just think that a convolution reverb would be better for what you're trying to do and should probably be used in moderation. I hate the current trend in solo classical instrumental recordings. Sounds like everything is recorded in an empty cave. Personal thing again.

An earlier post mentioned something about the value of experimenting with many different configurations and placements until you find what your ear tells you is right. Good advice.

Love to hear more.

R
 
I'm not using any compression. I fiddled a little with compression and couldn't make it do anything of sonic value (to my ears), and I see no reason to fiddle more with it at this point.

I'll be getting some more out soon, targeting some higher quality playing and requesting some feedback on that. This is where it gets tougher and =is one of the objectives of my little project, to compel me to kick my playing up a few notches. Getting some good critical feedback on my playing will help motivate. I think it's time to go find a good instructor again (my last two were back in the early 90's, Joe Deloro teaching rock guitar, and in the mid 90's, studying some jazz with Mimi Fox, both fantastic instructors and of course Mimi is a world class bebop-er. My last classical lesson was sometime back in the mid-80's!). And probably get a bit more formal and rigorous about practice time!

-k
 
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These are the best cuts by far. The sound is much more natural and open, and you've lost that "head in the soundhole" sound. The two cuts sound different: the trebles in the Sanz sounded a bit thinner and the nail sound was more pronounced. The levels on the Bach also seemed a bit stronger and the overall tone was thicker. It's hard to tell if the difference was due to distance, levels, or comfort with the pieces. In any case, these results sound alot more useable than the first. Nice work. :)
 
You've got good ears! Yes indeed I have been playing Canarios "lighter", but until you mentioned it, I wasn't conscious of it!

This whole effort is having it's desired effect: I'm ramping up my formal practice times, laying into technical studies (using the Kitharologus), and later this month, starting up with a instructor who's a pro. Canarios is already sounding a bit more...robust.

What you haven't commented on is something I've been aware of but am only facing the music on (yuck yuck) now: my p stroke is all flesh, no nail! I'm certain that to move my playing forward, I've got to correct that, and I'm working on it. Part of the problem is I need a substantially longer thumbnail to get it to connect up with the string on free strokes, mine is only 1/16" to 1/8" past the end of my flesh, and unless I contort my hand to get my thumb more perpendicular to the strings, the nail just doesn't make contact.

Anywho, thanks for the feedback. I'm past the happy time of getting new tech in house and up and running, now I'm facing the longer haul and reality of "gotta get my playing notched up quite a bit". I'm already hearing changes, those Kith exercises have a real effect! And I'm sure instruction's going to have it's impact as well.

I'm still going to try to pop out a new cut once a week or so, or I'll forget the process, and that'll be a nice record of my development too. I be posting some Ponce soon...

-k
 
It can be hard not to get gun shy with a mic in front of you, and even the best players can have a hard time dealing with it. Segovia used to get so frustrated that recording sessions might end up with him throwing chairs around the studio. Paul O'Dette, who has over 100 CD credits to his name, and whose playing has been described as "sheer genius" told me he still has a hard time getting in front of a microphone. The nice thing about your situation is that it will afford you the opportunity to get comfortable and the luxury of doing it enough that you can learn to trust your playing and your gear.

Glad to hear that you'll soon be getting some help for your playing. Tone production depends on a combination of so many things - nail length, shape, and thickness, hand position, angle of the wrist, blah, blah, blah.....

Look forward to hearing how things progress.

R
 
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