Recording Band with Orchestra

[Vagodeoz]

Hi guys.
Here is the deal. My band is going to have in a couple of months a concert with a 90 piece symphonic orchestra, and I'm working on the sound design for PA and Recording it multitrack for a DVD.
I'm going to make two sound designs:
An independent: No financing, using most of my equipment and renting the less possible ammount of gear.
A Financed one: With financing, renting better equipment.
I have been working lately on the independent one and I would like your opinions.
I'm also studying Musical Producion and Sound, and this will be a part of my thesis.


Gear I Own:
Behringer 2442FX Mixer
Juggs Drumkit 5 piece w/ 4 ZBT cymbals
Tascam 414 MkII
24x4 Snake

Gear I would rent:
Mixer with 16 mic inputs, direct outs.
HD24 or similar
PA and Monitoring stuff


Mics I have:
4 x Behringer XM8500
4 x K-Micro (Low SPL ones)
2 x SM58
2 x Behringer C2
2 x Behringer B2-Pro
2 x Rode NT5
1 x SM57
1 x Nady RSM-2

Mics I would rent:
5 regular dynamics (sm57, sm58...)

I would use my mixer (xenyx) for the orchestra channels and the 16 channels mixer as the main mixer, recieving a stereo mix of the orchestra mixer.
So here is the 24 channels I would record and each one with its mike.


1: Bass Drum (SM58)
2: Snare Drum (SM57)
3: Toms 1, 2 (XM8500)
4: Toms 3 (XM8500)
5: OH L (Rode NT5)
6: OH R (Rode NT5)
7: Bass (Line for recording/Rented dyn for PA)
8: Gt 1 (Rented Dyn)
9: Gt 2 (K-Micro)
10: Key (Line)
11: Voice Ld (SM58)
12: Voice 2 (XM8500)
13: Voice 3 (XM8500)
14: Strings L (B2)
15: Strings R (B2)
16: Violin 1 Reinforcement (C2)
17: Violin 2/Viola Reinf. (C2)
18: Woods L (Rented Dyn)
19: Woods R (Rented Dyn)
20: Brass (RSM-2)
21: Percussion (Rented Dyn)
22: Bassoon solo (K-micro)
23: Audience L (K-Micro)
24: Audience R (K-Micro)

Those would be the 24 channels recorded on the HD24.
I also was planning to record a backup mix on my Tascam 414. Maybe a Stereo mix of the band and a stereo mix of the orchestra, both straight out of the PA.
I know it's not a great idea but with this few gear I can't think of a better way.

The main problem is going to be orchestra mikes capturing band, especially drums, so I would have to get some sort of acrilic wall (like the one on the metallica and dream theater orchestral concerts).
Also for strings I chose the B2 becouse I would use it on Fig.8 with the 90 degrees axis aiming at the drumkit, to get a maxium rejection. Same with the Brass.


Connecting Mixers:

Main mixer (16 chn.):
Aux send 1: Monitor Mix A (through snake)
Aux send 2: Monitor Mix B (through snake)
Aux send 3: FX (To Behringer built in FX unit)
Aux ret 1: Orchestra (from Behringer Main out)
Aux ret 2: Playback tracks (from external player)
Aux ret 3: FX (From Behringer built in FX unit)
Main out: PA (through snake to power amps)

Many will start screaming about the behringer's FX unit, but I find it quite good actually, and is the only I have (remember about renting the less possible equipment?...)
Hmm... I just realiced I wasn't thinking about compressors.... I guess I would need at least 2, for kick and lead vocals.
So anyway... what do you guys think about it?

PD: Just in case, we play symphonic black metal

 

[TerraMortim]

how the hell can you afford a 90 pc orchestra? Is it under the table?

 

[Vagodeoz]

how the hell can you afford a 90 pc orchestra? Is it under the table?

Hehehe, I'll tell you my secret, but don't tell anyone Actually I'm not "affording" it. They aren't charging anything. It's like a favor exchange thing. They are doing this for me and I'm recording them a CD.
They aren't a professional orchestra though... It's more like a comunity orchestra. Check out this thread.
But it's still the best orchestra from the second biggest city in my country, so they aren't that terrible either

 

[mshilarious]

You mic setup looks OK. I don't understand the two mixers though. Isn't your Behri 24 channel? Are you running the 16 as a monitor mixer? If it's your band, are you playing in the band? Who is doing the live sound & recording?

 

[Vagodeoz]

Well, it's not really 24 channels, but 24 inputs.
It has 8 mono channels (with mic preamps and direct outputs), 4 stereo chanels (only 2 with mic preamps) and 4 stereo returns. So the real XLR phantom powered, mic preamp´d channels, are only 10.
And I'm going to be playing... drums probably.
I think I'm hiring a local engineer to record and do the PA stuff, but I would probably be doing soundcheck and stuff as much as I can, since he seems to know about audio, but not necesarily about symphonic black metal.

 

[TerraMortim]

Hehehe, I'll tell you my secret, but don't tell anyone Actually I'm not "affording" it. They aren't charging anything. It's like a favor exchange thing. They are doing this for me and I'm recording them a CD.
They aren't a professional orchestra though... It's more like a comunity orchestra. Check out this thread.
But it's still the best orchestra from the second biggest city in my country, so they aren't that terrible either

Awesome, thanks for that bit of insight. I've been dying to record some of my stuff with a real orchestra instead of just sample libraries (some of the things I want to do I have no idea how to make convincing with sample libraries) Dunno why I never thought about doing something like that before. I think I'll see if I can strike up a similar deal with a choir and an orchestra =)

 

[Vagodeoz]

Awesome, thanks for that bit of insight. I've been dying to record some of my stuff with a real orchestra instead of just sample libraries (some of the things I want to do I have no idea how to make convincing with sample libraries) Dunno why I never thought about doing something like that before. I think I'll see if I can strike up a similar deal with a choir and an orchestra =)

Of course it's a lot easier if you live in a third world country (Bolivia) where no one has the slightest idea about audio, and those very few who do change a shitload.
Those recordings from the other post, I made them for free, to give them a sample of my work. After hearing that they decided to accept the deal.
And another orchestra heard my recordings and reciently payed me 150$ to record them a cd. It was pretty much a demo, recordings in one day, mixing/pseudo-mastering in the other. Also I had to travel to their town (about 100 km) to do the job, I took the singer to help me a bit, and payed our expenses with 25$. An all-included trip for two, and 125$ Not bad for my studio's first job?

So back to the gear talk... Any ideas? Anyone thinks that this kind of concert is impossible with only 2 monitor mixes? or any ideas how to distribute them?
I was thinking that apart from the usual floor monitors for most of the band, the drummer (probably me) and the orchestra director should have headphones, but not sure if they should have metronomes.
Playing with a metronome takes out a lot of the fun of playing live, but then again... this isn't a high school concert where you play to have fun.
And I think it's better to spend 1 "boring" hour playing to a metronome, instead of 2 weeks in the studio editing all the fuck-ups becouse of not using a metronome

 

[TexRoadkill]

I'm going to vote for just hiring the other engineer to run things. This project has CLUSTERFUCK written all over it.

 

[LeeRosario]

Hi guys.
Here is the deal. My band is going to have in a couple of months a concert with a 90 piece symphonic orchestra, and I'm working on the sound design for PA and Recording it multitrack for a DVD.
I'm going to make two sound designs:
An independent: No financing, using most of my equipment and renting the less possible ammount of gear.
A Financed one: With financing, renting better equipment.
I have been working lately on the independent one and I would like your opinions.
I'm also studying Musical Producion and Sound, and this will be a part of my thesis.


Gear I Own:
Behringer 2442FX Mixer
Juggs Drumkit 5 piece w/ 4 ZBT cymbals
Tascam 414 MkII
24x4 Snake

Gear I would rent:
Mixer with 16 mic inputs, direct outs.
HD24 or similar
PA and Monitoring stuff


Mics I have:
4 x Behringer XM8500
4 x K-Micro (Low SPL ones)
2 x SM58
2 x Behringer C2
2 x Behringer B2-Pro
2 x Rode NT5
1 x SM57
1 x Nady RSM-2

Mics I would rent:
5 regular dynamics (sm57, sm58...)

I would use my mixer (xenyx) for the orchestra channels and the 16 channels mixer as the main mixer, recieving a stereo mix of the orchestra mixer.
So here is the 24 channels I would record and each one with its mike.


1: Bass Drum (SM58)
2: Snare Drum (SM57)
3: Toms 1, 2 (XM8500)
4: Toms 3 (XM8500)
5: OH L (Rode NT5)
6: OH R (Rode NT5)
7: Bass (Line for recording/Rented dyn for PA)
8: Gt 1 (Rented Dyn)
9: Gt 2 (K-Micro)
10: Key (Line)
11: Voice Ld (SM58)
12: Voice 2 (XM8500)
13: Voice 3 (XM8500)
14: Strings L (B2)
15: Strings R (B2)
16: Violin 1 Reinforcement (C2)
17: Violin 2/Viola Reinf. (C2)
18: Woods L (Rented Dyn)
19: Woods R (Rented Dyn)
20: Brass (RSM-2)
21: Percussion (Rented Dyn)
22: Bassoon solo (K-micro)
23: Audience L (K-Micro)
24: Audience R (K-Micro)

Those would be the 24 channels recorded on the HD24.
I also was planning to record a backup mix on my Tascam 414. Maybe a Stereo mix of the band and a stereo mix of the orchestra, both straight out of the PA.
I know it's not a great idea but with this few gear I can't think of a better way.

The main problem is going to be orchestra mikes capturing band, especially drums, so I would have to get some sort of acrilic wall (like the one on the metallica and dream theater orchestral concerts).
Also for strings I chose the B2 becouse I would use it on Fig.8 with the 90 degrees axis aiming at the drumkit, to get a maxium rejection. Same with the Brass.


Connecting Mixers:

Main mixer (16 chn.):
Aux send 1: Monitor Mix A (through snake)
Aux send 2: Monitor Mix B (through snake)
Aux send 3: FX (To Behringer built in FX unit)
Aux ret 1: Orchestra (from Behringer Main out)
Aux ret 2: Playback tracks (from external player)
Aux ret 3: FX (From Behringer built in FX unit)
Main out: PA (through snake to power amps)

Many will start screaming about the behringer's FX unit, but I find it quite good actually, and is the only I have (remember about renting the less possible equipment?...)
Hmm... I just realiced I wasn't thinking about compressors.... I guess I would need at least 2, for kick and lead vocals.
So anyway... what do you guys think about it?

PD: Just in case, we play symphonic black metal

I hate to be the one to say this, and I'm totally professional with intention....but how is not over the top?

In totally honesty, I'm looking at this setup like, "what?".

You really have to step back and think about your situation here for a second. Could you tell us what your work area looks like? Indoors? Outdoors?

In my opinion, the key is going simple, rather than complicated. I mean, I'd be asking myself some key questions here:

1) What IS my absolute budget?
2) Are there any rehearsals I can attend?
3) what does the work area look like? Sound like?
4) is there an orchestrator and/or conductor that I can sit down and have a meeting with to dicuss how we can work together?
5) How is the conductor going to setup this orchestra and how am I going to mic this minimally and optimally?
6) What problems can I expect and be on standby for from gathering all the previous information?


You see, cause while the job is to capture this performance faithfully (and it sounds like you only have one shot), all these mics are prone to getting in the way, plus your running into messy mixing issues here.

I mean you're going to have to identify, with the orchestrator, how he's hearing his orchestra and how you can translate that to a faithful recording. From there you can give or receive recommendations.

That's why rehearsals are so important. You can scope out your room, listen from different angles, and assess what measures youre going to take to setup this thing. For one, the cable runs are probably going to be considerable and if it's outside, then this becomes another post.

When it comes to orchestral recordings, there's a contrast to rock recordings technique. Orchestral is more organic and room based, while rock is more focused and processed based. In an orchestra, you're trying to figure out how to use your room to enhance your ensemble. With a rock band, you're trying to figure out how to make the room work, but also how to keep it from getting in the way. And here you are about to mix the two together.

This means different types of preamps and different micing all together. I can guarantee you'd get a better sound with 5 to 7 good quality mics for the orchestra. A decca tree could work for this, or it may not. Very clean and neutral pres, matched to clean mics also bring out symphonic qualities in orchestral recordings.

Aggressive and grundgy pres bring out better rock characteristics. Tons of close micing and good sound canceling and focused microphones. Dynamics being optimal which of course starts with the 57s and 58s.

If it was me, and you said you had a bit of a budget, why not focusing on one good low budget console with decent pres? You can always split off connections to your rig if you're worried about taking a copy home.

I dunno, maybe I'm making it too much of a big deal, but I just figured something on this level merits some professional concern for a positive outcome.

Just my opening statement

 

[Vagodeoz]

Wow, thanks a lot Lee for taking the time to write all that!
I'll try to answer some of your questions.
Budget: For this one, the budget is as low as possible, since the money would be coming out of my pocket, and the few I have I spend it on gear.

The Decca tree seems like a good option.......... for recording classical music. This isn't classical music. You don't mix/record an orchestra that is playing mozart, the same way you do with an orchestra that is playing black metal, Just like you don't mix the same way a jazz trio, or a punk trio.
Also, I wrote all the songs and made the orchestral arrangements, so if anyone know how it should sound, it's me. So while mixing (in the studio) I'm going to be needing some control about specific parts of the orchestra. Being able to add a more woodwinds, or brass or anything, when I need it. Remove some fequencies to some instruments and add some frequencies to others... Compressing some instruments...
The Decca tree bases on 3 mikes, which are omni... That might work for an orchestra recording in a studio, but not for an orchestra with a band playing live with PA. Miking 90 musicians with 3 mikes it's not only leaving those tracks with a terrible ammount of bleed (drums would be waaay louder than orchestra), but it's also going to be a huge headache for PA and feedback.
I know my mikes are far from good, but since I'm already paying the orchestra with the recording of their cd, it would be terrible not to get financing for equipment, and not making a gig at all, even if with my gear I could make a decent set-up.
For concerts of this kind usually each musicians has it's own mike, but I can't nearly afford that.
Metallica did that with their 100+ orchestra, and on the DVD you can choose to hear the whole mix, only the band, and only the orchestra, and when you choose only the orchestra, you still hear the band pretty loud. That is with 100 musicians with 100 microphones, so using less than 10 mikes, I think it's kinda suicidal.

The venue would be indoors, but I don't know yet where it's going to be, so I can't give you much info about how it sounds or anything.
As for that local engineer. There's no way I would trust him to do everything. He isn't that good either, I have seen him doing pretty nasty things with an orchestra PA.

I'm also doing another sound design option, with rented equipment and financing, but getting someone to finance a black metal concert in bolivia is going to be pretty fucking difficult, so I'm trying to keep a back-up plan (this one), so in case I don't get financing I still can do the concert.

Also you have to keep in mind that here in Bolivia audio standarts are usually really low (especially for engineers), and it's the first time a concert like that is done here. So even if I put radio shack mikes all around the orchestra, the audience would probably still be happy.
Not me however, but this is one huge oportunity that I can't let go. Budget or not budget.

I'll start working later on the financed option, but for this one I want to see how to get the most out of my gear, and once I have things quite clear and see what would be my weakest points here, then I would move to the bigger rented sound design.

The biggest (only) sound company here has great gear (A&H mixers, Sennheiser/AKG mics...) and some nice places for the concert. They also promote/organice concerts, so my options (from most likely to less likely) are:

A) Doing it independent (with all my gear and renting few)
B) Using some of my gear and renting many external gear. I would need to find someone to finance the concert however.
C) Selling the concert to the sound company, and make it in their places with their gear. Since it's THEIR own gear I would have access to a lot of great equipment... IF they agree to make the concert.

Of course the ideal would be C, or even B, but those ones aren't up to me.
I will do everything I can to get them, but the most likely option so far seems A.


Thanks for your suggestions/bashing and keep 'em coming.

 

[LeeRosario]

Wow, thanks a lot Lee for taking the time to write all that!
I'll try to answer some of your questions.
Budget: For this one, the budget is as low as possible, since the money would be coming out of my pocket, and the few I have I spend it on gear.

The Decca tree seems like a good option.......... for recording classical music. This isn't classical music. You don't mix/record an orchestra that is playing mozart, the same way you do with an orchestra that is playing black metal, Just like you don't mix the same way a jazz trio, or a punk trio.
Also, I wrote all the songs and made the orchestral arrangements, so if anyone know how it should sound, it's me. So while mixing (in the studio) I'm going to be needing some control about specific parts of the orchestra. Being able to add a more woodwinds, or brass or anything, when I need it. Remove some fequencies to some instruments and add some frequencies to others... Compressing some instruments...
The Decca tree bases on 3 mikes, which are omni... That might work for an orchestra recording in a studio, but not for an orchestra with a band playing live with PA. Miking 90 musicians with 3 mikes it's not only leaving those tracks with a terrible ammount of bleed (drums would be waaay louder than orchestra), but it's also going to be a huge headache for PA and feedback.
I know my mikes are far from good, but since I'm already paying the orchestra with the recording of their cd, it would be terrible not to get financing for equipment, and not making a gig at all, even if with my gear I could make a decent set-up.
For concerts of this kind usually each musicians has it's own mike, but I can't nearly afford that.
Metallica did that with their 100+ orchestra, and on the DVD you can choose to hear the whole mix, only the band, and only the orchestra, and when you choose only the orchestra, you still hear the band pretty loud. That is with 100 musicians with 100 microphones, so using less than 10 mikes, I think it's kinda suicidal.

The venue would be indoors, but I don't know yet where it's going to be, so I can't give you much info about how it sounds or anything.
As for that local engineer. There's no way I would trust him to do everything. He isn't that good either, I have seen him doing pretty nasty things with an orchestra PA.

I'm also doing another sound design option, with rented equipment and financing, but getting someone to finance a black metal concert in bolivia is going to be pretty fucking difficult, so I'm trying to keep a back-up plan (this one), so in case I don't get financing I still can do the concert.

Also you have to keep in mind that here in Bolivia audio standarts are usually really low (especially for engineers), and it's the first time a concert like that is done here. So even if I put radio shack mikes all around the orchestra, the audience would probably still be happy.
Not me however, but this is one huge oportunity that I can't let go. Budget or not budget.

I'll start working later on the financed option, but for this one I want to see how to get the most out of my gear, and once I have things quite clear and see what would be my weakest points here, then I would move to the bigger rented sound design.

The biggest (only) sound company here has great gear (A&H mixers, Sennheiser/AKG mics...) and some nice places for the concert. They also promote/organice concerts, so my options (from most likely to less likely) are:

A) Doing it independent (with all my gear and renting few)
B) Using some of my gear and renting many external gear. I would need to find someone to finance the concert however.
C) Selling the concert to the sound company, and make it in their places with their gear. Since it's THEIR own gear I would have access to a lot of great equipment... IF they agree to make the concert.

Of course the ideal would be C, or even B, but those ones aren't up to me.
I will do everything I can to get them, but the most likely option so far seems A.


Thanks for your suggestions/bashing and keep 'em coming.

very good. Although I hate that word "bashing". I was just expressing honest first concerns. I'm definitely not trying to step on your toes.

It sounds like you got your plan and I got a better picture of the situation. I got a terrible first impression, but I guess part of the gig is getting to know your professional .


See for example, and this is just retorical like if it was me:

stuff like this, I'm painting a rough picture in my head with things like some good earthworks mics and DPA mics for the orchestra side. Like I said, Decca could work, but if not, then the rehearsals are a good place to test out any configuration you want. Plus I'd like to indentify if there are going to be soloist among any sections of the group. Of course, they'd need a mic as well.

Some Millenia pres would sweeten the deal.

For the metal side of it, I would of asked for a few Neve 1077s with tighter range mics. All this perhaps going into a basic Pro Tools HD rig or Motu HD setup with some good clocking. That's all I'd want for myself.

There's going to be bleed no matter what. It's a matter of filling in stuff nicely straight from the recording stage. I'm not waiting until mixing to figure out if stuff works together or not. Which means you'd need a set of reliable cans (headphones) and/or onsite reference monitors at the console.

Mixingwise:

I'd figure out what's the angle here: is it A) the orchestra is the focal point, the band is filling in. B) The band is the focal point, the orchestra is just there filling in. or maybe even C) the band and the orchestra are both headlining this thing.

It sounds retarded, but there are major differences in micing and mixing each senario. There's certain things schools can't teach, where good ol trial and error reign supreme. Bob Kat's book has a cool section on stuff like this, assuming your school hasn't had you read it yet.


Also, I've heard of a company called DreamHire that is pretty good about getting you fancy rentals whenever you have onsite stuff like this that needs any type of gear. Just throwing it out there.

I look foward to hearing a few sound clips in the future, man. I always get a kick out of hearing stuff like this.

 

[Vagodeoz]

Thanks again lee
I wasn't reffering to you when I said bashing, I was refering to Tex's "clusterfuck". I really appreciate your experience, especially seeing how high your recording standarts are
But as you probably know, symphonic black metal isn't a very accepted kind of music. There are a very very few bands that actually record with orchestra, but no one has made a concert with an orchestra yet. Becouse the genre limits the budget a lot. Especially in a country with poor economics and even more reject to metal than other countries... so it's the budget way, or the highway.
We obviously are talking about very different levels of quality. I know my gear S-U-C-K-S A-S-S, but it's what I have, and I'm trying to get the most out of it, and that is where I was hoping you guys could help me

That renting worldwide page seems great! Except for the prices hehe
What will cost me to rent a 24 ch mixer here, it will cost me to rent a SM57 with shipping But at least it's good to know that something like that exists for the future.

Pd:If you want to check out some demos (still working on them), here they are.
Pd2: I think in this case we both are headlining the thing.

 

[LeeRosario]

and that is where I was hoping you guys could help me



Pd:If you want to check out some demos (still working on them), here they are.
Pd2: I think in this case we both are headlining the thing.

sure thing. Let me see what I can think up with what you got and I'll get back here later tonight.

 

[LeeRosario]

Alright,

I was trying to go through that list of gear you have, with the limited time I do have here. I can't really say too much without having seen this room for myself. So I guess I'm going on general guidlines here.

So other than trying to get specific, I would try to sort out my best condensers for the overal picture, the stereo image. As to where that's going, I can't say, cause again I don't know what this room looks or sounds like. For the other mics, I still cant say. I don't know what instrumentation is going on here.

So to that, a very important thing that I would really advise strongly:

Start listening to orchestral/rock band albums and make notes. There's one in particular I think you have to check out if you haven't. That is Silverchair's "Diorama" album.



Not metal, but a phenominal example of what it is to put a band in perspective with an orchestra. And not just any orchestra, but Van Dyke Parks orchestra. He of course is the master behind Brian Wilsons orchestral work.

It's a great concept, the album is beautifully mixed and produced (by David Botrill: Tool, Coheed and Cambria, Peter Gabriel)...it's genius. As a reference, it's great to go with. Just start with that.

I think ear training is a place to start.

 

[Vagodeoz]

Thanks a lot again for your time and knowledge!

The symphonic orchestra has about 30 violins, 10 violas, 6 cellos, 3 doublebasses, 2 per each wood (flute, clarinet, oboe, bassoon), 5-6 french horns, 3 trumpets, 3 trombones, 3 timpanis, bass drum, snare drum and cymbals.
My band is 2 guitars, bass, drums, keyboard and voice.
It's a shitload of instruments to mike.
Also don't forget I have to use this mikes for PA too, so I can't just put a stereo pair. It would feedback to death. (Unless you were reffering to a main stereo image ONLY for recording, plus the close mike reinforcements)

After I read your post last night I startet watching Dream Theater's symphonic DVD. I think that is like the bentchmark of what I'm trying here, even if their orchestra was way smaller (about 35 musicians).
I took some screenshots that may be worth analising together.

1) Acoustic Panels:
Here is those panels I was talking about earlier, to decrease bleed in orchestra's mikes. Placed all across the stage.

Here is a screenshot from another concert, this time from Therion. They put the whole band in the back of the orchestra, and they went as far as putting the drum kit inside a box made of acoustic panels. It looked awful, but becouse if that they were able to mike the whole orchestra and choir (about 150 in total) with no more than 15 mikes.

2) Drum kit:
Mike portnoy is a beast! He used two drum kits for this concert. Each one with it's own mirror to have visual contact with the orchestra director in his back. Check out the D6 on the floor tom

The drum kit is what is most far in the back (in the band section) and it's still pretty far from where the orchestra starts. 20 feet maybe?

3) Strings:
Violins and violas with clip-on mics.

Violin with tiny little mic

Is that a mini-mixer to bounce on the spot many violin tracks to fewer?

Cello with LDC. Neumann perhaps?

4) Woodwinds:
I read that the sound engineering for the BSO uses Sennheiser 421's on the woods, but here we see the flute with... what is that? An Audio-Technica?
Anyway, it's a SDC instead of a dynamic...

This particular orchestra only has flute and clarinet, but I couldn't see the mike on the clarinet.

5) Brass:
For the trombones and trumpets they use the same mike. I have no idea what model that is, I only know it's a pretty known condenser.

6) Percussion:
The BSO guy said he uses SM57s on timpanis, but here I see this guy using SDC. Is that a shure?

7) Other:
Front field: I might need that... hmmm...

Analog synth + Orchestra = Happy audience.

Petrucci and his "Wall of Guitar" (Lucky bastard sponsored by mesa boogie...)

 

[LeeRosario]

I think the pictures you're showing here show great enthusiasm. It's one of those things that falls under two categories everytime: a) the practical and b) the personal


With each of these shots, you can feel how a different aspects of sound design where involved here. You can get a rough sketch. I think the imporant thing being avoiding any holes in the sound.

I did have moments in certain projects I had no clue about at the start, that managed to screw me real quick. You setup, check levels, press record, and hope for the best.

The next week everyone is all excited to see what you got and the orchestrator is like, "shit! where the hell are the 3rd violins man?!...did you get the flute solo in that part?! awe man, that would of been such a good take".

So I learned hard things and well, that's just part of it.

So that's what I'm getting at, avoiding the "would of been greats" and making it a "perfect, you got it".

If the band was the focal point, then you could opt for some sort of band in front, then some type of divider/gobo, and then a sensible orchestra setup behind that.

It just depends on how much space you have on stage to work with, what angles this stage is giving you, how you interpret opinions into sound, and what you're willing to do to get that sound. There can be alot more to this, but I'm trying to avoid stressing you out. It's not stressful, just a busy process.


It'd be nice to get a shot of the stage youre going to be working with and/or any other info like that.

ps.

Portnoy does do wonders on that kit by the way....big fan of his.

 

[jmorris]

I'm going to vote for just hiring the other engineer to run things. This project has CLUSTERFUCK written all over it.

I was thinking it but did not want to say it!

 

[Vagodeoz]

As I told you earlier, I can't sent you a photo of the venue, since we haven't decided where it will be. It *might* be here, but it's way too early to tell.

The next week everyone is all excited to see what you got and the orchestrator is like, "shit! where the hell are the 3rd violins man?!...did you get the flute solo in that part?! awe man, that would of been such a good take".

That is exactly my point. If I do a stereo take then I will have no control whatsoever over individual instruments. You said you have problems with that when only an orchestra was recorded. This one will also have (pretty loud) band in front of it, so I guess close miking is needed.
Also... I was thinking...
This one is'nt a professional orchestra. So I could mike it like if it was a 40 piece orchestra. Ie: Best violinist usually sit in the front rows. I put the mikes really close to the front rows violines.
That way it would capture fewer instruments, but better played. Also would help a lot with the bleed. But still it will have a 90 piece orchestra on stage

As for that engineer, it would be great to give him a blank check and tell him to rent whatever he needs, but that doesn't make much sense considering this one was supposed to be a budget option... Even if I had the money I'm not sure I would do it, since he isn't a very good engineer. If I had the money, instead I would probably hire one of my ex teachers from Buenos Aires... IF I had the money...

Actually I was expecting comments more like "yeah, your gear sucks shitty bloody ass, still I would change the K-Micro on the guitar with the dynamic from the percussion" or something a bit more specific than "change everything"

I'm doing now another option renting some more gear, and I'll post it later for more bashing

Lee: The idea is to put the band in front of the orchestra (like dream theater). By "main stereo image" you mean for the orchestra right? The usual X-Y above the head of the director? Even if done with very tight cardioids (SM81s?) it will have a shitload of drums on it (and feedback). Unless I use for example the Behringer B2 in figure 8 rejecting the drums at 90 degrees, and doing an A-B technique. Which one do you suggest?
And you meant ONLY a stero take? or a MAIN stero take and still close miking for reinforcements?

Edit: Another idea I had was to mike strings equally, but for the front row (10-12) use contact microphones, and record a stereo take of that, to have a direct sound reinforcement apart from the bleeded mikes. U think it would work?

 

[Vagodeoz]

Ok, here is another option, this time with more bucks.
I changed the 16 ch mixer for a 24 ch mixer. Probably a Mackie 8 bus.
And I still have the behringer 2442 FX for more channels, but this time I'm using it for less important tracks that don't need that much clarity.
Here it goes:

24 Ch. Mixer (Main PA Mixer):
1) Drum L (Stereo mix from Behr. Mixer)
2) Drum R (Stereo mix from Behr. Mixer)
3) Bass (B2-Pro)
4) Guitar 1 (Sm57 RENTED)
5) Guitar 2 (Sm57 RENTED)
6) Acoustic Guitar (Line)
7) Key (Line)
8) Lead vocals (Sm58)
9) Vocals 2 (Sm58)
10) Vocals 3 (Sm58 RENTED)
11) Vocals 4 maybe
12) Strings L (Nt5)
13) Strings R (Nt5)
14) Violin 1 (Sm81 RENTED)
15) Violin 2/Viola (Sm81 RENTED)
16) Cello/Doublebass (B2-Pro)
17) Woods 1: Flute/Clarinet (SM57 RENTED)
18) Woods 2: Oboe/Bassoon (SM57 RENTED)
19) Brass 1: French Horn (Sm58?? What does people use on horns?)
20) Brass 2: Trumpet/Trombone (C3000 perhaps? Or what the hell is that mike on the dream theater screenshot?)
21) Percussion (Sm57 RENTED)
22) Solo (SM57 RENTED)


(I chose the Nt5 as strings main pair and not the SM81 becouse the Nt5 are matched pair)


Behringer Xenyx Mixer:
1) Audience L (K-Micro)
2) Audience R (K-Micro)
3) Kick (112/52 RENTED)
4) Snare up (Sm57)
5) Snare dn (Xm8500)
6) Tom 1 (Xm8500)
7) Tom 2 (Xm8500)
8) Tom 3 (Xm8500)
9) Oh L (C2)
10) Oh R (C2)


Gear for renting:
24 Ch. Mixer
24 Ch. recorder
6 x Sm57
2 x Sm81
2 x Sm58
1 x C3000
1 x 112/52
PA/Monitoring
Shitload of cables

That should leave me without weekends for quite a while.

 

[Vagodeoz]

Guys?
Please I need suggestions! I know my gear sucks and it's far from the ideal conditions, but there isn't a single eartworks mike in Bolivia ground, not to mention Neve Pres, so even if everything goes great and I get hold of all the gear of that mayor PA company, mics I would get would be Shure, Senheisser and AKG.
At least I need to know if my biggest problems are lack of gear, or bad distribution of the gear I have.