recording acoustic piano onto computer, help!

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clavichord

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Though it seems like most folks on this forum are doing guitar or electonic-based music, I hope someone can help me. Any acoustic piano players out there?

I want to record acoustic piano music (from a real piano, not a keyboard or digital instrument) directly onto my computer, and then make CDs that I can give to people to play on regular stereos.

I don't have any special software yet. I had a bit of success using the "record audio only" setting on Windows Movie Maker, and was able to get some songs onto the computer using the computers internal mic. However, Windows Media Player doesn't seem to recognize those songs as music files, wmp or wav etc. and I can't figure out how to get them on the CD in a way that makes stereo playback possible. (I did get them onto a CD, but playback is only possible on a computer).

Oh, and I used the computer's built-in mic! It wasn't as bad as I expected, not really much hiss or noise, but the piano's dynamics were obviously a bit too much. I'm planning on trying an external mic next. (Have been looking at the info on this site, it's all a bit overwhelming!)

I don't plan on doing any multiple-instrument stuff, so mixing is not an issue, but I think when I switch to an external mic there's probably going to be a lot of noise.

So I would like any advice on what to do with the songs I've already recorded, esp. how to get them on a CD, what kind of software I should consider for future recordings, and what kind of software makes it easy to clean up noise. I want (need?) something that's as simple as possible. Thanks for any help anyone can give me.
 
I can't figure out how to get them on the CD in a way that makes stereo playback possible.
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What's the file format created by Windows Movie Maker? Usually Windows files have a "." in the name, followed by three letters. What are those three letters? If you want to use the recordings you've already made, you'll need to find software that can read that type of file and convert it to a 44.1kHz stereo PCM file, which is the standard for "Redbook" CD audio.

A better solution would be to record in the correct format in the first place.

To get a reasonably good CD of piano music, you'll need the following:
  • a well maintained piano
  • a good sounding room
  • a matched pair of microphones (condenser preferred)
  • a matched pair of preamps
  • a high-quality sound input device for the computer
  • recording/editing software
  • CD burning software
All of this doesn't have to be horribly expensive. To some extent, there may be ways to work around those things you can't change, like the room. But the sound you get out won't be any better than what you put in, so the piano itself is crucial.

Specific recommendations for equipment will depend on your budget.
 
I would gt this DMP3 for a dual preamp. You can probably get this for between $120 and $150 at Guitar Center. A lot of us have. I haven't used it on my grand piano yet (I don't play well), but it sounds fabulous on acoustic guitar.

I would get these MXL603s for a stereo pair of microphones. Ditto, great acoustic guitar mics that I am sure can't be beat for the price except maybe by Oktava MC012, which will run about the same price. Both are great mics, and can probably be had for less than $175 pair.

Here's and excellent and inexpensive soundcard Audiophile. I've seen these at GC for as low as $129.

There is a lot of inexpensive recording software out there (Cakewalk N-Tracks, Cubasis, etc.)

The setup above can be had for under $500, including software, if you shop very wisely and don't mind haggling. The quality of sound will make you want to throw your old recordings away and re-record the pieces.
 
DonF said:
What's the file format created by Windows Movie Maker?

the three letters are WMA. What does that mean?



>>A better solution would be to record in the correct format in the first place.


I am beginning to get that impression!!


The only thing I have from your list is a pretty good piano and a decent room, though I suppose those are both the most difficult and expensive items...
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Oops, sorry! More questions. This is the newbie forum right? Please forgive me...


DonF said:
To get a reasonably good CD of piano music, you'll need the following:
  • a well maintained piano
  • a good sounding room
  • a matched pair of microphones (condenser preferred)
  • a matched pair of preamps
  • a high-quality sound input device for the computer
  • recording/editing software
  • CD burning software


    What's the difference between microphones and a sound-input device for the computer? Do the mics go through the device? What do the preamps do? And just to confirm, the CD burning software refers to making CDs that are playable on a regular stereo right?

    Thanks for all the help!
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clavichord said:
the three letters are WMA. What does that mean?
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As far as I know, it means the files are useless for burning to a CD, unfortunately. I think it stands for Windows Media Audio, and I am not aware of a non-Microsoft program that can read the format. (Doesn't mean that one doesn't exist.)
The only thing I have from your list is a pretty good piano and a decent room, though I suppose those are both the most difficult and expensive items...
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Yup. If you have those, the rest is easy.
What's the difference between microphones and a sound-input device for the computer? Do the mics go through the device? What do the preamps do?
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The mics are connected to the preamps, which supply phantom power (assuming condenser mics) and amplify the tiny trickle of electricity coming from the mics to a level that is usable by the input device. The input device can be a soundcard inside the computer, or an external interface that connects via USB. Some input devices also contain preamps, so it's mostly a matter of deciding what works best for your budget and technical abilities.
And just to confirm, the CD burning software refers to making CDs that are playable on a regular stereo right?
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Most CD burning software is capable of burning CD-R's that will play in most consumer CD players.
 
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DonF said:
As far as I know, it means the files are useless for burning to a CD, unfortunately. I think it stands for Windows Media Audio, and I am not aware of a non-Microsoft program that can read the format. (Doesn't mean that one doesn't exist.)[
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So, is there anyway I can change the format for an existing WMA to so other format to make it more accessable?
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Look HERE for some software that might help. I haven't tried any of these programs, so I can't recommend them.

One thing you may not be aware of is that WMA, like MP3, is a compressed audio format. This means that some of the audio information is discarded to make the resulting file smaller in size than the equivalent file in WAV format. Inevitably this degrades the sound, and converting the WMA to a WAV file cannot recover the information that has been lost. Whether the degradation is significant is a judgment call. I would seriously consider re-recording if I were in your shoes.

By the way, I agree with all of tdukex's recommendations regarding equipment.
 
I was indeed not aware that WMA is a compressed audio format. I checked out the link you posted for converted WMA files, but I think you are right, I am going to have to re-record.

Well, in addition to all concrete advice I have received here, I have also come to a somewhat painful realization (which I am sure most of you other folks figured out long ago!)

Just as there is no shortcut for good playing technique, there is obviously no shortcut for good recording!

Looks like I have to do some shopping!

I've been looking through the FAQ and the other threads, so along with this thread I have gotten a lot of really helpful advice and learned a lot (including how much I just still don't know!)

So just to confirm, in terms of getting software that records in the correct format for making stereo-usable CDs, I take it that Cubasis or Cakewalk would do that? And WAV format was mentioned, is that a format that will allow me to create CDs for the stereo as well?
 
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Yeah, WAV is what you want. It's burnable.

A good cheap piece of software you should think of, is N-track. You can download a demo from fasoft.com and see how you handle it. If you decide to buy it, it's only 60$ or so for the full featured version.

What kind of a budget are you on? You could get a very simple (though usable) setup for less than, I dunno... 200$ if you're on a really tight budget. THe thing is, A recording of a good piano will always sound awsome, becasue it's an awsome. It's the last 10-20% that you need real high quality gear to acheive. These 20% are the difference between an amature and professional recording.

As far as mics go, the MXL-603 are about 75-80$ each. A cheaper alternative would be Behringer's omnidirectional ECM-8000 which are about 35$ each. If you're willing to go higher than that, check out MXL-2003 (~150$), Sure SM-81 (330$) Rode NTK (500$) or AKG 414 (800$ each).

(Yes. It NEVER ends... :D )

Regarding the per-amps, a pair of DMP-3 sound perfect to me, but an M-Audio Audio Buddy can be sufficient for starters (70$ a pair). Higher Quality pre-amps are in the 1500$ range...

If you're computer's sound card has a line-in (I assume it's a desktop computer. If it's a laptop, things may be a little tricky...), it can be usable for starters. If not, an M-Audio Audiophile is about 150$. You don't need more than a stereo input, so this should do.

Don't forget that you also need mic cables, a couple of boom stands, and adaptors. That'll eat a few more bucks...

Good luck!

Oren
 
Sorry, clavichord, I didn't get notified when you edited your post. I wasn't ignoring you.

I agree with most of what Aren said. To clarify, though: the only audio format you can burn to CD is 16-bit, 44.1kHz stereo PCM. Keep that in mind. BUT -- you don't necessarily want to record your original tracks in that format. The CD standard was developed over 20 years ago, when a 300 baud modem was considered fast, and data storage was expensive. 16/44.1 digital audio represents a compromise between acceptable sound quality and data storage requirements. I would recommend at the very least recording with a 24-bit resolution. The conversion to the required 16-bit format is relatively straightforward, and should be the very last thing you do before burning. The main advantage you get with the 24-bit format is increased dynamic range, which will allow you more freedom to make gain adjustments between the tracking and burning stages of production.
 
I wondered if I should have added a new reply instead of editing! Sorry.

So, I have decided to buy some software. I am thinking I will buy things little by little, get used to them and add more as I go along, that should make it more manageable (both financially and in terms of learning how to use everything!)

BTW, I should tell you all that I live in Japan (I'm American), so though my computer has Windows XP, it's in Japanese, and I have never tried to install any software that isn't in Japanese. (Most software that's common in the US has Japanese versions, so far that hasn't been a problem, but I'll have to see if N-Track is available)

I found out I can get Cubasis or Cubase in Japanese for XP, I haven't looked for N-Track yet, but I wanted to ask what the difference between N-Track and Cubasis is. Well, also what the difference between Cubase and Cubasis is (though Cubase is just too expensive I think!)

And all of these softwares allow you to do WAV format right? Remember, I really only need one track (though maybe in the future I might want to record my voice with the piano accompaniment, so that would be a maximum of two tracks). can I record in a 24bit with Cubasis?

I was thinking I could get Cubasis, learn how to use it and then next month or so, start adding mics etc. I assume the sound quality won't improve until I get the other equipment, but I think the hardest thing will be getting used to the software, so I thought I would start with that. Does that make sense?

Let me just say again how helpful everyone is here! I think I would have given up if it weren't for this site, but now I am starting to feel like I might actually be able to do something (maybe.)
 
One more question. I was looking at the N-track homepage (fasoft.com, thanks for the link!)

When I record my piano, shouldn't I record in stereo as opposed to mono? Let's say I'm only using one mic, or later on if I expand and have two more mics?
 
Oops, sorry, more questions!!

Someone asked if I had a laptop or desktop. I have a desktop, and there are jacks for a headset, one for the mic and one for the phones. Will that work for whatever mic (mics) I end up using?

There weirdest thing is that I have never been able to locate the internal mic! I know there's one, because I've used it to record, but I just can't find it. (Another sign of my computer-illertacy I suppose...)
 
I don't know anything about Steinberg's products (Cubase, etc.). I only have a minute right now, or I'd go look it up for you to find out what the differences are between them. Any competent music recording software will allow you to create WAV files, though, so I assume the Steinberg products have this capability.

Almost any multitracking software will handle the track counts you're talking about. You don't say what kind of processor, or what speed, you're running; but the fact that you're able to run XP on it implies that it's reasonably current. An older machine will probably have some severe limitations. Yes, I would recommend recording the piano in stereo, which implies two mics, two preamps, two sound card input channels, etc. For solo piano this is the only way to go, really.

As for the internal mic, look for a funnel-shaped hole somewhere in the case of the computer. The inner end of the funnel might only be 1/8" across, since the mic itself is probably pretty small.
 
Well, as Don said, you nedd two mics to record a real stereo sound. However, if you're just using the internal mic, you might want to record a stereo file (although it won't be stereo) because you can only burn stereo WAV files.
My experience with Cubase is limited, but I never really figured it out. It's a lot more complicated than most recording software. I would really recommend N-track, since its interface is really straight forward. I've been using it successfully for a few years now, and while some of the releases were really unstable, the current version is pretty good. The technical support is wonderful and bugs are fixed within days. It also comes with a really good manual, with step by step instructions.
The fact taht your computer's internal sound card has no line-in jack means that it's inadequate for a serious recording. However, some sound cards have an option turn the phones jack into a line in by changing something in the BIOS setup. You should check your user's manual. If there isn't one, I guess a propper sound card is the first thing on your list. However, since pro-level sound cards usually have no mic pre-amps in them, you'd have to get a dual pre-amp and a couple of mics together with it...
Welcome to the bottomless pit of Home Recording :D
 
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