Recording a Martin D 28

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phil fridge

New member
I have two acoustics which i use for recording ....or perhaps more accurately i should say i have two acoustics i'd like to use for recording. The guitars are a Gibson J150 (Almost identical to a J200 but less ornate ) and a Martin D28 . The Gibbo is a dream to record , and i can get decent results with most mics, but the Martin is a nightmare.....and always sounds harsh. I have with a lot of experimentation cut a couple of things, using an AKG condenser but it really is a pain. Has anyone got any suggestions? The AKG is a a large diaphragm , and i've got a couple of small pencil condensers ( matched stereo ) , a Rode Valve mic and the usual Shure option of a SM 57.
 
Start with narrowing down what you mean by harsh', and what the nature of this harshness and/or where it might be coming from. I.e., -might it be the sound of that instrument with those strings and that pick.. One could be looking for or expecting a sound a guitar simply doesn't do.

Or are we pretty much past all that and 'it's close, just need the tone tweak solution?
 
phil fridge said:
I have two acoustics which i use for recording ....or perhaps more accurately i should say i have two acoustics i'd like to use for recording. The guitars are a Gibson J150 (Almost identical to a J200 but less ornate ) and a Martin D28 . The Gibbo is a dream to record , and i can get decent results with most mics, but the Martin is a nightmare.....and always sounds harsh. I have with a lot of experimentation cut a couple of things, using an AKG condenser but it really is a pain. Has anyone got any suggestions? The AKG is a a large diaphragm , and i've got a couple of small pencil condensers ( matched stereo ) , a Rode Valve mic and the usual Shure option of a SM 57.
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please post what you find out, I suck at recording acoustics and need all the help I can get! Thanks
 
mixsit said:
Start with narrowing down what you mean by harsh', and what the nature of this harshness and/or where it might be coming from. I.e., -might it be the sound of that instrument with those strings and that pick.. One could be looking for or expecting a sound a guitar simply doesn't do.

Or are we pretty much past all that and 'it's close, just need the tone tweak solution?
Click to expand...

I guess what i mean is it sounds a little on the 'toppy' side and also metallic, i could simply say horrific! though. I wouldn't say its a tone tweak situation.....its worse than that !
 
Then you need to compensate. if you can't find the tools to compensate to get the sound you want out of that guitar, just use the other guitar. If you must use that guitar, we'd have to know the information of what you want to eliminate. I know it's hard to describe. But try to describe.

Is there too much top end? Are the mids too much? That's what it sounds like to me. Sounds like it's a mid focused acoustic guitar. And the microphone would need to back off the mids to compensate. The way you do this, is in your EQ in your DAW recording program. Since I'm not there, I have no idea which frequency it is that you need to back off on, but pull up the EQ and the ones in the middle, are the mids. Pull each of them up and down while listening to the recording and see which one it is. It'll probably be a combination of 2 or 3. But there will be a main one.

I personally would use that rode tube mic. What model is that? Is it the one that has the knobs on it to control the mids highs and lows? If so, you might can eliminate the culprit on the microphone without having to record it and manipulate it in post.

If that don't work, and EQ might have to be brought into the mix.

This is why I only play taylor acoustic guitars. I play a smaller bodied one, don't like dreadnoughts, and I need a cutaway for my leads. Yet it's louder than a martin dreadnought. It has a lot of low end, good mid range and enough highs to make it sound good but not twangy. Which is exactly what I need.

But I have to use elixir nanoweb 12-53 to make that result happen. If I put regular acoustic strings on it, then all the sudden that top end goes away completely and so do a lot of the mids and I'm left playing a very bassy sounding acoustic guitar.

I also tune down a half step. You might want to try that too, if yours is too twangy.
 
I've used Elixir strings for years, but in more recent times , i've gone for a custom light set with a 11 top....i really don't thing its a string issue though. The Rode is an NTK , which is really most suited for vocals.
When i'm recording i've someone else at the desk, my songwriting buddy, and i think he's twiddled every possible eq option. I've nothing against Taylors, there're very nice guitars, and funnily enough when i bought the Martin about 10 years ago i went to the shop with the intention of buying a 410 , the Martin outperformed that particular guitar . Of course i use the J150 for recording because of the problems that the Martin has given but it would be nice to get the sound it projects in the room onto recordings. As i generally play electric my sojurns into acoustic recording tend to be only occasional. I will however get my buddy to try some drastic action on the mid range and i'm inclined to agree with you it is a 'middle' sounding guitar so i thankyou for your input and keep experimenting.
 
Hi Phil
I've got a D35 & found a really nice tone with a pair of sdc with one on 12th fret & the other over the shoulder & the other day was VERY surprised when I had my SM58 plugged in & tried the MARTIN straight at the soundhole (which is supposed to be VERY bad!) but it sounded great, so keep trying!

And let us know what you discover! :)
 
Thats the approach we've tended to go for...i.e. matched stereo condensers, one on the neck and one over the shoulder,, i do have a SM 58 and nothing to lose so we'll give that a go as well. Thanks for your input .
 
I've been playing and recording a D-28 for quite a while. Other than being boomy if I point a mic too close to the soundhole, it hasn't been a problem.

The fact that you're happily recording your Gibson makes me think you're not having phase issues, but the sound you describe from the Martin sounds like phase issues. Are you recording stereo? If so, where are the mics placed? (edit - just read your last post :) - anyway, try X/Y if you get a chance)

I usually record mine with an x/y stereo pair of small diaphragm condensers aimed at the 14th fret, about a foot away from the fretboard. I also have to make sure there's a lot of open space in front of the guitar (no walls or furniture or other reflective stuff within say 12 feet), or sometimes I take a dense silk rug and drape it over a chair and place it about 6-8 feet in front of the guitar, behind the microphone stand(s).

Just out of curiosity, what year is the D-28?
 
Thanks for your post......my D28 was built in 2001, so its matured a little bit now . As i mentioned above i intended to buy a Taylor 410 when i headed for the shop, but i deliberately chose a dealer who had a full range of Gibson, Martin and Taylor guitars in stock. I had a friend with me so i could listen to the guitars when he played them and vice versa and I was in a fortunate position of not really having a major budget restriction. I spent about 5 hours! in the shop and really tried everything and i thought the Martin was the best acoustic in the shop to my ears. The J150 i have i bought second hand, blind on e bay! That has proved though one of the great guitar purchases of my life, it records beautifully and has doubled in value in the 7 years that have passed since purchase. I don't know what the moral of the tale is , but i shall keep trying to get the Martin to record properly and take onboard the suggestions made on this forum.
 
I record the Epiphone version of your J200 using 2 LDC mic's which seems to be contrary to the accepted principle of using SDC's on acoustics. I have a '69 Martin 000, that I use as well frequently for the double track, mic'd the same as my EJ200. I get good results on both guitars with an AT4040, and a AKG C414XLII. The 4040 is bright, and the 414 is dead neutral, so depending on the tone I'm after I use one or the other in a neck / body configuration.

I hang moving blanket gobo's around me to deaden room reflections. I have learned to take the time and make some minor adjustments in relation to mic positioning and distance from the neck/body. Sometimes 2" changes things dramatically.

Like your J200, my EJ version records magnificently. My Martin is no harder to record. My Martin is very neutral sounding, no exagerated bottom, or sparkly hi-end. (Yes, with brand new strings.) I used to fight that with Marty looking for that top end shimmer, with every mic combination in my locker, but it wasn't there from the beginning.

Stupid question, are you putting brand new strings on the Martin prior to recording? I find that makes a HUGE difference.

Sorry, I don't think I provided the answer you were looking for, but hopefully some ideas to pursue.
 
Muddy T-Bone said:
I record the Epiphone version of your J200 using 2 LDC mic's which seems to be contrary to the accepted principle of using SDC's on acoustics. I have a '69 Martin 000, that I use as well frequently for the double track, mic'd the same as my EJ200. I get good results on both guitars with an AT4040, and a AKG C414XLII. The 4040 is bright, and the 414 is dead neutral, so depending on the tone I'm after I use one or the other in a neck / body configuration.

I hang moving blanket gobo's around me to deaden room reflections. I have learned to take the time and make some minor adjustments in relation to mic positioning and distance from the neck/body. Sometimes 2" changes things dramatically.

Like your J200, my EJ version records magnificently. My Martin is no harder to record. My Martin is very neutral sounding, no exagerated bottom, or sparkly hi-end. (Yes, with brand new strings.) I used to fight that with Marty looking for that top end shimmer, with every mic combination in my locker, but it wasn't there from the beginning.

Stupid question, are you putting brand new strings on the Martin prior to recording? I find that makes a HUGE difference.

Sorry, I don't think I provided the answer you were looking for, but hopefully some ideas to pursue.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the suggestions.....re the strings, on the last occasion , yes i did -the A and bottom E were pretty dull, and i suppose i generally do when recording.
I know even the slightest adjustment of mic positioning and the players position can change the recorded sound, thats why i prefer recording electric guitar!
My wife has a little Martin, i think i might try recording that and see if thats as difficult to capture!!
 
Phil-

You only changed 2/3 of the strings! I can't stress how important that is when recording acoustic guitars and electric for that matter. I learned by accident when I was tracking and couldn't get the guitar to sound right. I used very mic in the locker, in every combination, and it wasn't happening. The strings only had maybe 3 or 4 hours of playing time on them, so they weren't a consideration orginally. Out of shear desperation, I changed them and viola problems resolved.
 
No you misunderstand...i changed the whole set, the two strings referred to were the reasons i did. The only time i would change an odd string would be in a gig situation.
 
New strings aggravate any brightness problem. What's a good sounding Martin recording that you like? Neil Young say? That dude often has very old strings on his Martins. Martin dreadnoughts are notoriously hard to record. In my opinion it's because the sound seems to be resonating all over the top. If you stand back a bit then it seems to make sense. But if you get a mic in there close, there are spots where it's extremely boomy, and then spots that are very bright. Whereas Gibsons often will have one focused spot you can just throw a '57 on and it's nicely balanced. This is just generalizing of course because every guitar is different, but I've noticed this between my D18 and J50 for sure.

Try a couple things. First, try two mics. One around 6-12 inches away pointed at around the 12th fret at an angle, and the other perhaps over your right shoulder to capture what you're hearing from your ears' perspective. If that doesn't work, maybe try to incorporate a room mic out in front a bit. The placement will be touchy, but you might find something. However, a live room, new strings, and a condenser mic all exacerbate the brightness problems of acoustic guitars. So maybe address those things first.

Try the dynamic mic/s. Or a ribbon if you have one.

I've been in the same boat, actually, and have pretty much just given up and always record my Gibson. It's so much easier. Plus I'm often singing at the same time, and a bunch of mics starts to add up to phase issues.

By the way, concerning phase issues, if you're only using one mic, there can't be a phase issue.
 
I've had superb results with a stereo pair of Audio Technica AT 4041s (SDC). Fabulous for acoustic guitar or any other acoustic string instrument. Make sure you have a 48v phantom power source.


Tom
 
A common approach to recording acoustic guitar is to direct the SDC mic at the sound hole. Common, but not the best. A guitar's (meaning acoustic) sound comes from the top. It is similar in function to the sound board of a piano. That top can be picked up from various places. Many pick it up from the neck area where it joins the body- but that's really picking up the top/soundboard. The incidence (angle) of the sound waves colliding with the diaphragm of the microphone is optimized at a right angle. Guitar players I have known often fidget. So while you placed the mic optimally, any movement by the player will effect the right-angle incidence. So tell 'em to be still.
Another thing: it is tempting to try two mics in recording an acoustic. It can work, but be fore-warned that two mics at this close range invites phase problems- at tge upper registers, phase issues can be encountered in fractions of inches difference in placement. Not impossible, but sure ly tricky.
Now that I've mentioned incidence of angle, it can be your enemy- or your friend. If you are overdubbing or recording the guitar solo, try moderating harshness by changing both distance and angle. Proximity effect is also at work here, so a distance of a couple feet might be worth trying- or if you have an omni SDC, give that a try. And if you're recording a group all together, then all bets are off, because dealing with ambient sound may paint you into a corner acoustically. Experiment. Nobody's keeping score. There are so many variables, there is no assurance someone else's cookbook approach will give you great results.
 
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