Recording a Grand Piano...

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uchihaclan

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I've started to record a demo with my band and I've found that the piano sounds really shitty after I've recorded it. I think that half of it may be because of the room acoustics, but the other half may be due to mic placement/mic selection. I've tried different mic positions (two mics in X/Y position, large diaphragm at the rim of the piano...etc.) but they all sound muddy and not clear at all. I was wondering if anyone has tips on how to get a clearer recording (other than improving the room acoustics).

BTW, I'm using a Studio Projects B1, a Shure SM58, an Apex 430, and an AKG D3300. I'm running the mics into a Yamaha MG 10/2 mixer, and then into a Firebox, and then recording using Cubase LE.
 
I get the best results by placing two identical condensor mics directly above the hammers - about 6 inches or so - facing down at the hammers, with one over the bass, one over the treble. Mine are about 20 inches apart. Record with the lid up. Room acoustics don't interfere and I get a great recording.

I can give you links to check out alternatives, but thought you might just like to know what works.
 
Also, there's this slight hissing noise in the background....you wouldn't happen to know how to lessen that would you?
 
If you'll do a search in the Microphone forum, I believe that Michael Jones has some pretty helpful comments on the subject.
 
It kinda sounds like you're going for a "rock and roll" piano sound? I'm going to guess with a grand piano and not an upright? I'm also going to guess that you have the piano in a furnished room with like 8' ceilings? [Lemme know if and/or when I'm wrong] I'm guessing the room is somewhat live, like hardwood floors [parallel to the ceiling] with at least 3 full walls to the room and the piano kinda in a corner?

If more than 3 of those guesses apply... try this:

Take the lid off the piano [there are two hinge pins... pull them, remove the lide]

Use the "Studio Projects" mic about 2/3rds of the way up the harp in the center of the bass strings about 12-18" off the strings. Try the AKG pointed at the "label" inside the piano [usually located about 3/4's of the way to the right hand side of the keyboard behind the dampers].

Make sure the piano sounds like a piano in "one speaker mono" [with two mics like that you can get some phase related issues... the best way to check for phase related issues is by listening in "one speaker mono"]. If you find phase related issues, and you're getting a clear representation of the "left hand" from the Studio Projects mic... then move the AKG around [up-down, left-right, forwards-backwards] until the piano sound is clear and opulent sounding in one speaker mono.

Once you have it working in one speaker, make sure it works in context with the song. You may need to have the piano player move his right hand playing up an octave for it to separate from guitars [etc.]... from there on out, it's your music so you'll be the final arbitor of what is, and what ain't acceptable.

Best of luck with it.
 
the room i'm recording in is...

You were almost completely correct. It's a large room, hardwood, 8' ceilings parallel to the floor. It's basically a rectangular room, but on one wall there are two large entrances into the room (no doors). The grand piano is in the centre of the room (it's a Yamaha baby grand about 5' in length, BTW). I've tried what you said, but the recordings still sound muddy. I want them to be as clear as possible. Also, if I'm using two mics, do they have to be matched, or would two different mics be ok?
 
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i will post a sample of the recording to show you what it sounds like (and why i think it sounds bad) as soon as i can.
 
Two different mics are fine. I use dissimilar mics all the time... but a pair of the mics I use... with the pre's, etc., etc., etc. could buy you a fairly nice Mazda.

With all due respect, you're not going to get results with those two mics/pre's that are "professional" in nature. It shouldn't be overly "muddy" unless you're expecting something incredibly bright from the piano... but I reckon that's a matter of taste.

I'm going to also guess that it's your piano seeing as it seems from your posts like it's in your house. My experience recording Yamaha pianos has been that the player has to really hit the damn thing much harder than most other brands to get them to really stand out in a recording.

If it's an overdub, try mixing the piano a bit low in the headphone balance as you'll [I'm also guessing that you're the piano player?] tend to bang on the instrument a bit more [in order to hear it in the headphones] which will very often open up the tone of the instrument a bit.

I don't know what you're going for in terms of a piano texture [in context with the other music] so posting a sample might not be relevant. It could also mean that it might be time for you to buy an equalizer and add a little "air" to the sound [no laws against twisting some EQ knobs].

Best of luck with it.
 
Best recording I've ever heard of a piano was with a single ribbon, lid full up, mic 12' out, 6' up from the strings.

Admittedly, that was a Stuart piano at a custom-built recital hall, so that probably had about 70% to do with it.

As mentioned above, Yamahas are a bit less forigving than your quater-of-a-million concert piano, as to be expected.

The main thing I look for in the positioning of the mics is the harmonic points of the strings- you want the mics to pick up the strings where they are vibrating, and hopefully in a straight mode (ie up and down, not side to side). This is why most people go for the 2/3rds point on the strings- it's far enough from the hammers to reject any mechanical noise, it's at a decent harmonic point, and it's close enough to the tensioners to keep the mode relatively stable.

The lid off will work quite well in the room you've mentioned, although putting them back on is a pain...


FYI the recording I was talking about was this one:
http://www.stuartandsons.com/recording3.html
Recodred at the Angel Place Recital Hall (Sydney).

I can't remeber exactly what the mics were, sorry.
 
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Ok, thanks for all the helpful tips. I've managed figure out a method that was atleast decent sounding (to my preferences) based on what you've posted.
 
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