Recording a classical guitar on location

  • Thread starter Thread starter Sam Desmet
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Sam Desmet

New member
hi everyone,

I am a newbie to recording, and tried some experimenting with the equipment that I have:

2x Audio Technica 4040
Focusrite 2i2
DAW: Reaper
Macbook Air
Classical guitar


From what I've seen and learned by watching videos online, it seems to me there are a few 'standard' ways how to record classical guitar on location:

- have two cardiod mics on the same distance away from the guitar
- a combo of a large diaphragm set away from the guitar to pick up the natural acoustics of the room with a (pair) of small diaphragm mics paired close, in front of the guitar.


1) I have tried the first method since I do not have a small diaphragm mic, and I noticed that bass notes are too much present.
This got better when switching on the -10db the low cut switch on the mic, however, I hear a lot of 'nail' sound or 'attack' sound that I would like to filter out

2) I thought about buying the following small diaphragm mics, but honestly have no idea if that would work out better, I have a feeling it would, but that's some investment just based on a feeling:
Award-winning microphone engineering from Michael Joly



I figured before messing around with filters in my DAW, I want to get a good balanced sound first.


Any input on this would be more then welcome

Thanks in advance!


S.
 
Hi Sam. Welcome to HR. :)

The -10db switch is a pad or attenuator. You'd use that if your preamp gain is at minimum but your signal is still clipping your converters or whatever. If you're recording a snare close up, for example.
If this ^ isn't happening to you, leave it on 0.

The low cut switch is just that. It's cuts low frequencies. Usually it's a gradual roll off from set frequency like 100 hz.
If you have it on at the mic you're committing and losing those frequencies forever.
If you do it in your software you can get the same results but without the commitment.


Is your room especially nice sounding?
If it's just your average room in a house or whatever I'd forget room mics and just go close with one mic or a pair.
You can simulate a nice sounding room with a plugin later.

You say the pick noise is too prominent? This is where mic position comes into play.
If possible get some cans with good isolation on and move that mic around until you find a spot that sounds nice to you.
Be aware that you'll still hear some small amount of the live sound coming through so record and playback for a double check.
If that's not possible just do a series of short test recordings but move the mic or mics in between each recording and take notes on position.

Try XY up close, spaced pair up close, the same two again but 6" back, then 12" back then a few feet back.
Try one over the shoulder and one at 12" fret. Again, play with the distances.
There are any number of options.

You've got the right idea getting a good sound at the source.
I doubt you need to spend money on mics. :)
 
Hi, classical guitarist here. It just so happens I have an AT4040 as well. I play a Dake Traphagen spruce top. Someday I'll get a cedar but whatever. Cedars typically record better. Spruces sometimes project better.

Not sure you can filter out nail sound. As you know, there are ways to approach this through technique - plucking more perpendicular 90 degreee angle, particularly on the wound strings. Make sure your nails are nicely filed (recommend Scott Tennet's "pumping nylon" for an in-depth recommendation on this). I've even seen some guys use vaseline on their right hand to reduce nail noise although I never did it myself.

Always remember: The recording don't lie!

Also, if your bass notes are too boomy, don't place the mic near the sound hole. This sounds counter-intuitive.

Honestly you should probably try to simplify things a bit. Having two mics can create phasing problems (that's when the same sound hits two different mics at different times, it can cause cancellation of certain frequencies - not good). It is possible that your undesirable equalization is being caused by your two mics.

Just start with one mic. Place it near the 12th fret - about 12 inches from the guitar. The thought here is both hands create undesired string noise. The 12th fret is half way bewteen but you don't get the boomyness from the sound hole.

I wouldn't use the bass reduction or the pad on the AT4040. Honestly I've never been a big fan of that mic on a classical guitar. I also have a Neumann KM184 which I use most often. The Nuemann is silky, toneful, and bright.
 
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Hooray! There speaks a musician who knows what he's talking about and knows how the guitar should sound. There are lots of techniques that keep being talked about that make the guitar sound quite un-natural and processed. My own experience of classical guitar is the same. One microphone, and it provides focus. Tweaking in terms of gentle eq, and maybe a little artificial reverb to widen it up and you are there. If you have a guitarist who is really not too hot, then you may have to take the lead, but with a decent musician, they will know what sounds best.

I've never had much luck using mics at different distances, but if you have multi-channel capability then you can use more mics routed to different channels to give you blending possibilities afterwards, but frankly when people do this by using a mic closer to the fretboard, and a bit of panning, it's very easy to end up with a guitar with far too much width, and image shift as the fingers go up and down the frets which sounds very odd!
 
I recorded a Classical album for a client a while back and it come out very well. I miced the guitar further away then I usually do. I used 2 x Large condensers, an AKG C4000B and a Rode NT1000, and 2 x Fathead ribbon mics, 1 next to the large condensers and 1 further away. The phase of these mics were checked so there were no problems. Each mic was recorded to its own track. The reason for so many mics was options. They all sounded good but I wanted to be able to choose later, it also gave the option to blend the mics.

It should be pointed out that the room has to sound good.

Alan.

mike-pratt-blog-oct11.webpmike-pratt-blog.webp
 
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Alan's got a nice recording space to use that method - and that's really what is needed to record any acoustic guitar well. To the OP: if your room is not ideal, consider using movable bass traps as gobos to block stray room sounds that your mic is picking up.
 
Thanks for the feedback.

@ I bleedburgundy: Yes, I am very much aware of the 'clean' attack of Tennant. I have a doctorate in guitar performance and tone production is in my opinion very important, if not the most important aspect of playing.
I'll experiment with one mic placed on the 12th fret, since I've read about that before as well.
The reason why I have this mic is because my gf happen to have those laying around for recording her piano, and thought I would give it a try.

@witzendoz / @bleedburgundy: Any chance I could listen to a recording of yours to have a better idea of the recording sound?
 
Going back a few years, I recorded a live concert - and the player insisted on a single AKG451, aimed at the sound hole from around a foot - which is always talked about as not the thing to do. Here is a short clip

durrantguit.webp
 
Sam Desmet said:
@witzendoz / @bleedburgundy: Any chance I could listen to a recording of yours to have a better idea of the recording sound?
Click to expand...

Unfortunately as it is a clients recording I don't have copyright to post this or give it away.

I have found that with classical guitar getting the mic further away then you would for a normal acoustic guitar track aways works best. I would have even miced further away if the room was bigger, say a recital hall. The trick is a good room with anything to do with any classical music.

Here is a good example, you can't even see the mic in the shots only a hint of a mic stand from one angle.

Alan.
 
@Alan: I'm aiming more for a sound like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mNabUZI0czc

I asked Thomas what mics he's using, and even tho I'm not sure if he's uses these over here, but he told me "AKG c414 XLS" on hyper cardioid position, but I'm guessing this is not where the story ends...
Not sure if it's possible to create a similar sound with two AT4040 mics...
 
Sam Desmet said:
@Alan: I'm aiming more for a sound like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mNabUZI0czc

I asked Thomas what mics he's using, and even tho I'm not sure if he's uses these over here, but he told me "AKG c414 XLS" on hyper cardioid position, but I'm guessing this is not where the story ends...
Not sure if it's possible to create a similar sound with two AT4040 mics...
Click to expand...

The AT4040 is an excellent microphone, I wish I had one. I am sure that you would get a great recording just using 1 of them.

As I stated above, one of my mics was a AKG C4000B, this mic has been compared to a C414 as having a similar sound. I quite often just use the C4000B for acoustic guitars so I can see why they would say use a C414. However as I said before the room meeds a lot to the sound as well as the guitar and the player, if you have these 3 things working almost any good quality mic will work.

Alan.
 
rob aylestone said:
Going back a few years, I recorded a live concert - and the player insisted on a single AKG451, aimed at the sound hole from around a foot - which is always talked about as not the thing to do. Here is a short clip
Click to expand...

The AKG 451 is, without doubt, my favourite guitar mic. However, my technique is the very conventional stereo recording with one mic around the 12th fret and the other between the sound hole and the bridge. I play with these positions a bit, but generally only by an inch or two either way. If 451s are too expensive, my second favourite is a pair of sE1A mics. They work very well too.

The trouble with this sort of thread, though, is that everyone has a different idea of what they want the recording to sound like. Some (I'll include myself) like a bright, detailed sound. Others want something darker and warmer. There's no right or wrong. It just comes down to what you want.

Similarly, mention of getting some room tone in the recording adds another variable. Frankly, most rooms...even if you added a few bass traps or whatever, are best not included in the recording. On the other hand, a really nice space can add a haunting, special quality--often without miking it specifically. My best ever acoustic guitar recording (in my own opinion) was in an old stone cathedral that we managed to borrow. My second best was in a brick stairwell outside our video studio. In any domestic situation, I've always found it better to minimise the room tone entirely and add fake reverb later in the mix.

But everyone is different.
 
witzendoz said:
However as I said before the room meeds a lot to the sound as well as the guitar and the player, if you have these 3 things working almost any good quality mic will work.

Alan.
Click to expand...

Thx Alan... At least I got two of those things down... Guess I'll need to explore some locations ;-)

I got 10 different post-its on my desk with different mic settings I want to try, and keep a recording of each with some writings on each posted... Then I can make up my mind.
I can already tell from the first option: pairing two AT4040 about 1 feet from 12th fret, that all 'clicking / attack' sound is way better than before. I get a warm sound, but still too much bass, with the trebles sounding a bit thin but already better than any previous attend. The sustain is just the way I wanted and not too much like previous attends...

I think I'm on the right track to find a way to a better sound without any modifications, and to be honest I was shocked with the differences one hears in mic setup. Great learning school for sure!

You think it could be interesting just to use headphones with monitoring on for trying out different settings before actually recording?
 
I recently got some amazing mics for the job, they are the line audio cm3 stereo pair, handmade in sweden, they are extremely flat. It really depends what you want, for me I wanted a very very accurate unhyped microphone and couldn't afford the schoeps cmc6+mk4 or DPA 4011a, and I've not been disappointed so far!
 
The headphones method is exactly what many of us do to find the perfect place. All the knowledge points you to likely places, but an inch or two really can make a difference.
 
Sam Desmet said:
Thanks for the feedback.

@ I bleedburgundy: Yes, I am very much aware of the 'clean' attack of Tennant. I have a doctorate in guitar performance and tone production is in my opinion very important, if not the most important aspect of playing.
I'll experiment with one mic placed on the 12th fret, since I've read about that before as well.
The reason why I have this mic is because my gf happen to have those laying around for recording her piano, and thought I would give it a try.

@witzendoz / @bleedburgundy: Any chance I could listen to a recording of yours to have a better idea of the recording sound?
Click to expand...

I just googled you. It says you studied at FSU. I have a masters in classical guitar performance from FSU (2003). Studying with Bruce was awesome - so may awesome players there. I last saw him a few years ago when he was up here for the Alexandria guitar festival.

Your bio is a little confusing. Says you have a doctorate and that you studied at FSU. Not sure what degrees you attained where.

Anyway, you sound great from the samples on your website. Good luck!
 
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