recording a 1x12 open back guitar combo and other tracking advice wanted...

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Hi_Flyer

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I'm gonna be tracking my band pretty soon and I'm trying to put together a game plan. We're gonna record the drums and one guitar live to 1/2" eight track (Tascam 38). I am thinking about trying two mics on the guitar amp since I've got good results with mic'ing two speakers in 4x12 cabs, but this 1x12 is sort of a different animal.

How would you mic this amp? Would you just throw one dynamic on it and be done with it? Or is there a multiple mic technique that I can try? I was thinking of trying an LDC on the back, what do you think of that?

I ask because in the past, I have had trouble getting decent guitar sounds with only one mic, or maybe to put it more accurately, I feel I get much better sounds with two mics. I usually use the trick where you move the second mic around the front of a noisy 4x12 cab until the noise cancels out in your headphones, then flip polarity on one mic. I have been really happy with guitar sounds that I get with this mic technique, is there a similar trick to placement on open back cabs?

A further complication is that I'm sort of limited with the number of mic preamps too. I only have four built in pres on my Mackie Onyx 1220, a Rane MS 1b and I just bought a GT Brick. So I will need a bunch of pres for the drums (oh yeah, I have a crappy Behringer mixer for close mic'ing toms). Where do think I should throw the Brick, as that may be the most lethal weapon in my arsenal? I'm thinking its either between the kick drum or the guitar, and leaning toward guitar...

Music is raunchy, trashy guitar driven punk rock'n roll. what do you think?

any thoughts?
 
thanks ez willis. yeah, I have actually read a good bit of that before. Trouble is, I don't think he gets into double mic'ing techniques though, (unless he gets into it later and I have not read the whole thing- its alot) and I think he is mainly talking about mic'ing up 4x12 cabs and I am gonna be mic'ing a 1x12 open back combo (by the way, its a Fender Deville). Plus, I don't really have an assistant, nor do I even have a control room. Also I do not have the fancy outboard, no EQ, no fancy desk either. I'm not gonna be recording really heavy metal sounds either.

So yeah, I try to do some of the basic things he talks about like get the amp cranked to sort of an ideal level, and stick my head right up on the speaker to get that first dynamic positioned just right. But for the most part, I don't think there is alot of content that will help me in this situation....
 
He probably doesn't talk about multi micing because it isn't necessary at all.
 
jonnyc said:
He probably doesn't talk about multi micing because it isn't necessary at all.
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Using two different close mics would at least give you a choice of sounds, one or other, or a blend of both.

Never heard of the noise canceling method, sounds interesting.
 
Take all of your available tracks that you have mic's for, stick one right at the speaker, put one back a few feet, throw a room mic in there, mic the back of the cabinet, mic the top, etc. Use the one that sounds the best, or blend a combination of them to taste.

There are no rules, and with the infinite number of variables in the chain, no one here is going to be able to tell you what will be the ideal setup.

Something else to think about: I record all the tracks myself. I record a scratch guitar track to a click, then record the drums to the guitar track. It'll open up your options with the limited amount of pre's available.
 
ez_willis said:
Take all of your available tracks that you have mic's for, stick one right at the speaker, put one back a few feet, throw a room mic in there, mic the back of the cabinet, mic the top, etc. Use the one that sounds the best, or blend a combination of them to taste.

There are no rules, and with the infinite number of variables in the chain, no one here is going to be able to tell you what will be the ideal setup.

Something else to think about: I record all the tracks myself. I record a scratch guitar track to a click, then record the drums to the guitar track. It'll open up your options with the limited amount of pre's available.
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Use a 57 where it sound best on the speaker and call it a day. You crazy Willis.
 
jonnyc said:
Use a 57 where it sound best on the speaker and call it a day. You crazy Willis.
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Dude, I totally agree, but I didn't really see the original poster accepting that answer. Ultimately, he will force himself to waste untold hours trying to reinvent the wheel. That's not a bad thing, I did it and I'm sure I'm not alone. It's part of the learning process. I was just giving him options.
 
ez_willis said:
Dude, I totally agree, but I didn't really see the original poster accepting that answer. Ultimately, he will force himself to waste untold hours trying to reinvent the wheel. That's not a bad thing, I did it and I'm sure I'm not alone. It's part of the learning process. I was just giving him options.
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I did it too, it always sucked. When I finally decided the one mic way was the best I still forced my self to try every other mic I had before accepting the fact that the 57 was the only mic I'd ever need in front of a cab.
 
I once got a really cool guitar sound by running a strat into a boss overdrive pedal into a solid state laney 1x12. This was mic'd with a 57 on the best sounding bit of the cone. A cable was also ran to a hiwatt 100watt guitar head and into an ampeg 8x10 bass cab. I mic'd the cab with an audix d3.
Sounds like a nightmare, but it actually gave me the best guitar sond I've ever gotten.
 
I agree that no single mic sounds as good as a '57 (or a '57 copy in some cases), but I still use two mics.

The '57 right up to the grill, slightly off-centre, and an AKG3000B about half a foot back, above the amp, loking down on it.
Then you have a gritty sound with a lot of bite, and a warmer, softer sound to mix in together...
 
In response to the original thread:

I have produced from very interesting results from micing the back of an open Cab like you mentioned earlier. Be sure to listen during set up for phase issues. Sounds like you have a good handle on phase, since you use the canceling in the headphone technique on the bigger closed cabs.

I might not use the LDC on the back. The sound back there will never be defined as well as the front, mix it into the front sound, perhaps with a little parallel compression for a meaty sound.

Also not sure if you want to use two mics to produce a stereo image of the guitars, in that case a carefully measured AB technique may be in order. For a little more on that check here .
 
Izzy- No, I'm not really looking for a stereo image. We have two rhythm guitars and they will be panned off to the side in the mix, so I'm just looking for a meatier sound. That article has some good food for thought though, I have run into situations where I wanted a big wide stereo image but with only one guitar performance.

Izzy, you say no to the LDC from behind, you would use a dynamic instead?

It also occurred to me that I could just plug a 4x12 cab into the amp and mic that the way I usually do, or I could split the guitar out to another small combo and mic that... I guess I have some ideas to experiment with.

I'm sort of surprised that more of you guys aren't turned on to multiple mic'ing techniques for cabs. I have been really happy with the results I get.
 
Hi_Flyer said:
I'm sort of surprised that more of you guys aren't turned on to multiple mic'ing techniques for cabs. I have been really happy with the results I get.
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Well it's not like it doesn't work it's just for me I've never felt like it added anything that was really needed. I personally take a minimalist approach with everything I do plus it saves me from unnecassarily high track counts.
 
Hi_Flyer said:
Izzy- No, I'm not really looking for a stereo image. We have two rhythm guitars and they will be panned off to the side in the mix, so I'm just looking for a meatier sound. That article has some good food for thought though, I have run into situations where I wanted a big wide stereo image but with only one guitar performance.

Izzy, you say no to the LDC from behind, you would use a dynamic instead?

It also occurred to me that I could just plug a 4x12 cab into the amp and mic that the way I usually do, or I could split the guitar out to another small combo and mic that... I guess I have some ideas to experiment with.

I'm sort of surprised that more of you guys aren't turned on to multiple mic'ing techniques for cabs. I have been really happy with the results I get.
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No problem. Glad I could help.
 
Hi_Flyer said:
Izzy, you say no to the LDC from behind, you would use a dynamic instead?
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In my opinion, and I'm sure Izzy can speak for himself on this one as well.... The difference between a condensor and a dynamic is the weight of the diaphragm. With the condensor it is SO much lighter, that even the slightest sound will make it move. Because it weighs much less it starts moving quicker (attack) and will stop moving quicker (release). This being said, the condensor in front of the speaker will pick up those things much more accurately and the condensor is being used for its intended purpose, whereas using the condensor in the back is using it for something it wasn't designed for. In comparison, you can take the motor out of a corvette and put it in a cavalier... not what it was intended for but now it hauls ass... or you could leave it in the vette and go cruising the strip in style because that's what chevy made it for. Both results good, but different.
 
For all you guys that swear by a 57 on cabs... Every time I record a guitar cab I always have a 57 slammed up in the grill. It has always been the good ol faithful backup that come mix down got a lot of use even when I also had 405's, 421's, 414's, U87's etc... on the cab or in the room. This was true until I got a Royer R121. The Royer sounds so much better that since buying the Royer I have not pulled out a 57 for guitar cabs.

As far as micing an open back 1x12.... I would start with what you feel gives you the best guitar sound you can get with one mic. Use the preamp and mic that you prefer, and probably mic the cab from the front. Once you feel you have the best guitar sound you can get from that, then maybe address the second mic. You might want to use it as a room mic, but often that depends on a large combination of things. First, does that roomy style fit the music it is going into? Second, does the players style and sound compliment it? Third, how deos the room sound? Generally I have found that a room mic does not work well unless at the very least the room sounds really good for that kind of tracking. If you decide to mic the back however, there are a couple of different methods. First, you could mute the front mic in the headphones and move the back mic around until once again you have the best guitar sound you think you can get with what you are using (mic, preamp, EQ, comp etc...). When you get to mixdown you will have to offset one of the two guitar tracks one way or the other a little to help compensate for phasing issues. The other method would be to place the back mic in the exact same relative position as the front mic with regard to distance and angle to the speaker itself. Once you have done this just reverse the polarity of the rear mic and you should have a signal that is not suffering too much from phase issues.

As for this whole thing with not using a condensor on the back of the amp, that is absolutely silly. There is no reason at all to not use one. The speed of the diaphragm, sensitivity and all that is not a reason to not use one on the back, but probably makes a better argument for why you should. Ultimately that decision starts with your mic arsenal. If you do have choices, you should try a couple of them to see which sounds best. Condensors are not "designed" to only be used in certain situations. I would imagine that virtually every good mic designer would laugh their asses off if they heard that people say condensors should not be used in such a scenario. In your situation, with your equipment, a condensor may not be the best choice, a dynamic might be, or a ribbon. However, often times it will be and there is absolutely nothing wrong with using one in this situation.
 
xstatic said:
For all you guys that swear by a 57 on cabs... Every time I record a guitar cab I always have a 57 slammed up in the grill. It has always been the good ol faithful backup that come mix down got a lot of use even when I also had 405's, 421's, 414's, U87's etc... on the cab or in the room. This was true until I got a Royer R121. The Royer sounds so much better that since buying the Royer I have not pulled out a 57 for guitar cabs.
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Yeah I've heard from many different people that the r121 is the shiznit on electric guitars. It's just at more than 10x's the price it's not a mic you can just run out and grab.
 
jonnyc said:
Yeah I've heard from many different people that the r121 is the shiznit on electric guitars. It's just at more than 10x's the price it's not a mic you can just run out and grab.
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No, but an original CAD e100 for $100 or so on ebay is, and it's a great guitar cab mic.
 
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