Reaper vs. Pro Tools

[Hangfire]

I'm buying a new system from the ground up. So far I'm thinking of a mini mac w/PT or PC w/Reaper. I'd like to start recording asap so I need something with an easy learning curve. Any help is greatly appreciated!

 

[Sinistah]

Reaper has turned Pro-Tools into a caveman-ish type overpriced DAW that only stubborn elitists support

i'd say leave Pro-Tools for the buzzards to grub off of and let Reaper go for the kill......













just kidding i don't use and isn't too familliar with using either....

 

[pipelineaudio]

If your primary concern is to share files with PT users, and you dont care about modern features, or performance and you dont mind being locked into a proprietary hardware scheme, then go with PT.

That might sound silly, but there are plenty of situations where it actually makes sense

 

[Steve Henningsgard]

Speaking as a person who's gone both routes professionally, I'd say it depends on your long-term goals. If you want to be able to take your projects to larger studios to mix, or if you plan on working as a freelance engineer, or as an on-staff engineer at a recording studio, I recommend learning Pro Tools as soon and as well as you can. If that's not a big deal to you, or if you don't see yourself really moving out of a home-studio environment, then the benefits of learning Pro Tools are greatly reduced.

Basically, with Pro Tools, you're paying a premium for no reason other than being able to use Pro Tools. Almost any other program (Reaper, Sonar, Cubase, Digital Performer, etc.) will let you use whatever hardware you like, whatever plugins you like, and will most likely have more features than Pro Tools. Pro Tools locks you in to Digidesign-approved hardware (not many choices) and Digidesign-approved plugins. The main advantage of using Pro Tools comes into play when you get one of their HD systems, as they have onboard effects processing which takes almost all of the processor load off of your computer. This is why you see professional studios running 48+ channels of audio with tons of effects, on an old G3 or G4 mac. Consumer/pro-sumer systems like the Digi002/003, M-Box, etc. don't have any onboard processing power, and thus don't really give you any advantage whatsoever over non-Pro Tools compatible hardware.


On the computer side of things, a well-built PC will work just fine with Reaper/whatever program you choose, but make sure to read up as much as you can on hardware/software compatibility issues and whatnot, as many times things like what chipset your motherboard uses, or what version of what drivers you use for stuff, makes a huge difference in stability. This is a large reason why many people prefer mac's over Windows-based PC's: stability. Yes, you *can* create an incredibly fast, stable, and relatively inexpensive PC that will work for you for years and years without issue, but it simply takes more work/research/maintenance than a similarly-configured mac. This is coming from a guy who's built/repaired his own PC's for 10+ years. I just went the Pro Tools route with a MacBook Pro and, while I miss some things about Sonar, I definitely don't miss a single thing about my PC except for it's gaming capabilities (which I don't really care about as I work so much I don't really have time for gaming anyway Except for the odd Diablo 2 session here or there hah)

When it comes to Mac Mini's, be sure to get the higher-end one. The ones with the smaller amount of ram are SEVERELY limited. Recording programs take a lot of resources, and you don't want to be limited right off the bat by the amount of memory you have. Get something with at least 1 GigaByte of memory, preferably 2GB if you can afford it. A large external Firewire drive is also a must!

Hope this helps

 

[Hangfire]

Whew - Thanks Steve!

Tons of very useful info and I appreciate the fact that you have experience using both formats. I really thought about a mini mac and PT but I've got a feeling home recording is about all I need for the time being.
I'm concerned about the learning curve. Last time I was in a studio was 10 yrs. ago in L.A. We laid tracks down on two inch analog tape then had the master converted to digital for CD's and cassettes.

 

[pipelineaudio]

Steve pretty much hit it, but as many PT to REAPER converts have shown, DSP isnt an issue in most cases anymore. A dual core CPU has PLENTY of juice. The ancient DSP in the PTHD systems really arent that powerful.

Of course, a strong PC PLUS DSP gives you that much more, but its a bit apples and oranges. Most native apps have full, complete plugin delay compensation, no matter what the number, order or type of plugin. You will often see guys with PTHD systems not using the included DSP at all for this very reason.

The "compatibility" thing is a VERY strong argument for PT in the midrange of the market. You won't often see it at the very top, as the uber engineers are either computer haters or RADAR guys, though some will use PT also.

If you want to be compatible with a PT system, hit file/consolidate in reaper, and save the resulting waves to a disc, PT will load them right where theyre supposed to be

The other thing we are seeing, is PT guys rewiring into reaper to use offline rendering, which is a particular sore spot in PT. Also they rewire into reaper for more tracks when they run out (not applicable to HD/TDM systems)

 

[Erockrazor]

If the main concern is getting recording right away with a simple learning curve, Reaper is a better choice. Pro Tools doesn't have as friendly of an interface to learn on.

Then again, youre getting an answer in the Reaper forum. Lets go Reaper ch ch chchch.

 

[theblackBay]

AS much as

I have Bagged Pro Tools

I have seen some recent interesting developments with the TCE Tool the auto loop timing tool and supposedly the full blown Beat detective.

also I hear in 7.4 there is meant to be a way to re-tempo "live" Audio with no apparent degradation of the sound quality I’ll believe it when I see it but. if they are going to do it with REX files I’d say they need a large improvement over what I’ve heard.

but hey?

Pro tools have some new an innovative features but it's overpriced.

but seeing these features maybe if one utilised these things a lot and they were lacking in other programs (which they are in some cases to degrees) it would be worth it.

for me there are more negatives than positives ATM with pro tools.

 

[theblackBay]

Re:dsp

I just built a E6750 Intel system (moderate powered Dual core 2.6) with 2gig DDRII (moderate amount of Ram). on a PK5 Asus Motherboard; Good motherboard.

my average Track amount is always over 30 and i have not run out of Plug-in power yet and i mean some of these Plug-ins are "large" i almost feel guilty about being able to use so many plug-ins but as a result i can get the results in my scattered head down better.

it's all in the Bus speeds I have been saying it for years, literally we could have had these Bus speeds years ago they were held back in my opinion but I’m not complaining. we have them now. (Probably National security issues)

this system runs a 1066mhz ram bus and a 1333Mhz Front side bus on the Processor with a 4mb L2 Cache. (if you don’t understand that consider that for a long time most system have run 133mhz)

check the Bus on the DSP cards i'd say PCI bus speed for DSP is 33 Mhz maybe 66 Mhz.

having said that of course run both you get more, but then it becomes an argument about free market competition price verses proprietary benefit V cost ratio.

the "free" market wins.

Here’s a run down in rough Pounds for what I listed (doing this in my head)

2 gig of DDRII RAM from the States delivered 35 pounds
The motherboard Asus Pk5 – 50 pounds
The Processor – E6750 - ?? um what maybe 85 pounds?

Ok total price basis for “HD” DAW system (bare bones) (need case and Hard drives)

190 Pounds or so? maybe less?

 

[Steve Henningsgard]

E6750 - $194.99
Asus Pk5 - Roughly $120
2x1gb ddr2 - $54
Cheapest video card - $29
Quiet Case - $50-100
Power Supply - $80
Hard Drive/s - $150
Monitor - $150
Keyboard/mouse - $30
CD/DVD drive - $30

So roughly $1000 including shipping. Not $180.

 

[IronFlippy]

E6750 - $194.99
Asus Pk5 - Roughly $120
2x1gb ddr2 - $54
Cheapest video card - $29
Quiet Case - $50-100
Power Supply - $80
Hard Drive/s - $150
Monitor - $150
Keyboard/mouse - $30
CD/DVD drive - $30

So roughly $1000 including shipping. Not $180.

Pounds and dollars are very different. Units are EVERYTHING. And he did say without case, monitor, etc. His price is not off.

While building your own computer has its benefits, I don't recommend it if you're not tech savvy. Tech support is the main issue here. When something goes wrong on your home built computer, there's no warranty backing it up. You either fix it yourself, or pay a computer specialist to fix it (big money).

For a stable system, I'd recommend just buying a Dell or other large manufacturer, wiping the hard drive (they ship with far too many extra programs and whatnot installed) and starting with a clean installation of windows (which is almost always included with the computer).

Since you're only using it for home recording, then Reaper is an excellent choice. Fantastic support over at the forums, and you can interact with the developer. If you find a bug and report it, it takes him literally a couple days at most to fix (depending on how much he is working on at the time, naturally). Have I mentioned how fast the program is? I absolutely love Reaper, it does exactly what I need it to do, and it does it extraordinarily well.

 

[Joseph Hanna]

The ancient DSP in the PTHD systems really arent that powerful.

The chips in HD process cards are no more or less "ancient" than most other chip based musical products.

Pro Tools still holds it's place in the industry based on the power of these cards and in and of themselves still are a massive engine for driving DSP effects without out the help of native number crunching..

You can hate Pro Tools and that's okay but for the sake of those still not fully understanding where and how all this shakes out that is not a very accurate statement.

 

[pipelineaudio]

The chips in HD process cards are no more or less "ancient" than most other chip based musical products.

They are in fact ancient and slow when compared to a modern say pentium 3 or AMD athlon, and mere gnats compared to a Core 2 Duo

Pro Tools still holds it's place in the industry based on the power of these cards and in and of themselves still are a massive engine for driving DSP effects without out the help of native number crunching..

Without PDC, the very limited power of these DSP chips compared to native (with full PDC, unlimited slots, parallel chaining, and SMP), I wouldn't call that "massive" I'd call it "crippled"

You can hate Pro Tools and that's okay but for the sake of those still not fully understanding where and how all this shakes out that is not a very accurate statement.

You can strawman me and that's okay, but for the sake of those still not fully understanding where and how all this shakes out, my above is a perfectly accurate statement.

 

[Joseph Hanna]

They are in fact ancient and slow when compared to a modern say pentium 3 or AMD athlon, and mere gnats compared to a Core 2 Duo

Naw you're comparing apples to oranges.

The chip sets on the HD cards have VIRTUALLY nothing to do with the chipset of a computer. They work ONLY "in addtion to". Their purpose (much like the chip in any hardware processor) has the sole responsibility of processing predetermined DSP effect algarithms. That of course not to mention that HD systems have at their diposal any pentium or athlon chip-set computer as well.

Without PDC, the very limited power of these DSP chips compared to native (with full PDC, unlimited slots, parallel chaining, and SMP), I wouldn't call that "massive" I'd call it "crippled"

The HD 3 systems we use here at work are capable of hundreds of tracks and in some cases hundreds of simultaneous plug ins before it touches the CPU. How much more would one need and above all where lies the crippled antiquity in those numbers.

You're most likely correct about PDC. I find it hard to dispute that since I have NO idea what PDC is but.... having said that.... what would keep a PDC system from working with an HD rig?

You can strawman me and that's okay, but for the sake of those still not fully understanding where and how all this shakes out, my above is a perfectly accurate statement.

Naw in fact to the absolute contrary. I can definatively calculate both track count and plug in count based on a given formula for HD performance. There is no smoke... no mirror

 

[SRR]

You're most likely correct about PDC. I find it hard to dispute that since I have NO idea what PDC is but.... having said that.... what would keep a PDC system from working with an HD rig?

PDC=Plugin Delay Compensation does protools le have it? I hope so! I know HD has it, wonder why you don't know what it is???

 

[Joseph Hanna]

I know HD has it, wonder why you don't know what it is???

HD architecture of course has delay compensation and nearly zero lactency when it comes to real time monitoring.

I've not ever heard it referred to as PDC as the code adjusts for more than plug-ins.

 

[pipelineaudio]

Last I checked HD's PDC was up to a certain amount per card, and a check of the DUC shows people pissed left and right when they run out. Thats when they rewire into a native app

 

[Joseph Hanna]

Last I checked HD's PDC was up to a certain amount per card

This is not correct. Pro Tools ADC is either off or toggled between handling compensation times of roughly 1100 milliseconds or 4100 milliseconds and is powered by a chip on the card. It is also across the entire session (every track). It has nothing to do with per card instantiations.

and a check of the DUC shows people pissed left and right when they run out.

As a frequent visitor of the DUC I don't recall a single thread that has EVER discussed running out of ADC. 4100 milliseconds is a life time of ADC. I suspect if there really was someone (after properly configuring the ADC) who still had gripes about ADC considering how much is available they, not Pro Tools, would be the sole source of the problem.

Thats when they rewire into a native app

I can't think of a situation that I have ever heard of.....ever.. where a Pro Tools HD system had to be rewired into a native system of any caliber to correct delay compensation failures.

Time moves on and the new round of quad and 8 core Mac's are clearly changing the current DAW landscape. It is obviously possible to configure an extremely potent native based system that is more than capable and more than we could have dreamed of a few short years ago. That not to mention every manufacturer is seemingly writing pretty brilliant software to go along with them.

That said where Digidesign "Time Division Mutiplexing" architecture is perhaps numerically growing older.....still in all NOTHING is even remotely capable of handling audio as elegantly as an HD system.

The notion that the industries most demanding environments who still use HD are somehow bamboozled by Digidesign marketing is fool hearty. These are production studios with some of the brightest engineering talents in the world and where money (at least for equipment) is NO object. If there were a better,more efficient solution, those production environments would be the first to lighten their workload and migrate towards the light.

I'll say again there is nothing ancient about HD based systems.

 

[theblackBay]

Dollar Pound

if you consider a pound is over 2x your tanking dollar you will realise i overestimated.

all arguments aside $1500.00 v $50,000 for the same result ...again I’d say read the name of the forum.

if you have the production experience your result will be the same.

and just think AMD and Intel aren't going anywhere.. when real competition exist in this market do you think the trend of process power will be more power for less cost??.... lets look at the history……

yep…..more power less cost..lets all thank the gods of digitalindustry.

this spells obsolete for "more cost high power" systems because "they" the companies or corporations unfortunately no longer hold a monopoly on the "means of production".

the "means of production" has been handed to the happy human individual in the form of a soundcard a firewire or usb device and a DAW like Reaper or Cubase or any others.

and look what he is doing with it!

Independent music is now so large in it’s combined sum old Corp bands like Radiohead are breaking with their masters.
This could not happen without the internet or free market digital industrial technology.

so wake up every day and thank human(mostly) technology.

 

[IronFlippy]

Not to veer off topic, but wasn't delay compensation only added fairly recently to protools? Version 6 or so? You know, many years after nearly every other DAW had it? What does that say about the developers?