Reamping - can anyone help me finally understand it?

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Laimon

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I mean, I do understand the concept of reamping, I just never managed to properly do it.
That is, as close as I get, it does not sound like it's right.

This is my setup: I have a PC, with an E-MU 1212M PCIe (2 inputs and 2 outputs, and all can be set to -10db or +4db), a DI box (Behringer GI100), a reamping box Radial RMP Pro and an Engl Ironball guitar head.
I have tried several combinations, this is the one that seems most sensible to me:
guitar -> di box -> audio interface in (-10db) -> PC -> audio interface out (-10db) -> reamp box -> amp

EDIT: of course the first half of the chain above refers to recording first, and the second half to reamping at a later stage.

Now, this setup should theoretically leave my signal unaltered, right? Besides the fact that I find differences in volume, the main problem is that the signal - or the way the amp reacts to it - change: it feels like I am sending a louder signal, crispier, and with less "gain" - that is, on the distortion channel the guitar sounds like overdriven rather than fully distorted (I should make clips, I know - I will tomorrow, now it's kind of late).

The bottomline is, anyway: what can I be doing wrong? Can anyone guide me through the right setup to do reamping so that it sounds exactly like it would by going straight to the amp?

EDIT: I did tweak things a bit, and I got fairly close. Here are clips (one direct, one reamping with +4db on the AI's out and 6 extra dbs from the sequencer, and one switching from one track to another every now and then):
https://soundcloud.com/simone-frau-2/sets/experiments-with-reamping
https://soundcloud.com/simone-frau-2/clipswap
 
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I think you have the concept of re-amping slightly wrong here?

The idea, as I understand it, is to run a perfectly played take out of the PC via desk or AI into a guitar amp and then play around with the latter to get the sound you want. Re-amping is not about having a complete chain from guitar>pedals>AI>PC>AI>RA box>amp. You record your track dry via the AI instrument input. You can split the guitar signal and feed that, via pedals if you wish to the guitar amp and mic that up. IF you get a good recording from the mic, all cool. But IF that recording is "off" in any way (but your chops are good) you can run it back through the amp n squared times until it is right.

Now, I KNOW people with argue this ad inf. But the signal coming out of an AI from an instrument input recording of a guitar is to all intents and purposes IDENTICAL* to the signal that you feed the amplifier (sans pedals) . Thus you can use the computer as a guitar playing "robot" to give you a guitar signal to experiment with.

*The re-amp box changes the level to be "guitarish".

Dave.
 
The reamp box basically is the reverse of a DI box. The DI box takes a 10k ohm signal and changes it to 600 ohm. The Reamp does the reverse.

Microphone level is 600 ohm- guitar is 10k ohm. (Impedance)

As ecc said- so you can record a dry signal (and listen to yourself through an amp at the same time) and take the dry signal and record it for later tweaking. Radial website has some nice diagrams.
 
So for your use you should split your chain up into two steps.

1) Guitar- DI Box- Audio Interface- PC (for the dry signal)
2) PC-Audio Interface- Re-amp- Amp (To get the dry signal to the amp you want to model)

The problem with this is you need another system to mic the cab -(or something else like a recorder to play the dry signal)... to get the wet sound- hence the use of amp sims.
 
JLondon said:
So for your use you should split your chain up into two steps.

1) Guitar- DI Box- Audio Interface- PC (for the dry signal)
2) PC-Audio Interface- Re-amp- Amp (To get the dry signal to the amp you want to model)

The problem with this is you need another system to mic the cab -(or something else like a recorder to play the dry signal)... to get the wet sound- hence the use of amp sims.
Click to expand...

ecc83 said:
I think you have the concept of re-amping slightly wrong here?

The idea, as I understand it, is to run a perfectly played take out of the PC via desk or AI into a guitar amp and then play around with the latter to get the sound you want. Re-amping is not about having a complete chain from guitar>pedals>AI>PC>AI>RA box>amp. You record your track dry via the AI instrument input. You can split the guitar signal and feed that, via pedals if you wish to the guitar amp and mic that up. IF you get a good recording from the mic, all cool. But IF that recording is "off" in any way (but your chops are good) you can run it back through the amp n squared times until it is right.

Now, I KNOW people with argue this ad inf. But the signal coming out of an AI from an instrument input recording of a guitar is to all intents and purposes IDENTICAL* to the signal that you feed the amplifier (sans pedals) . Thus you can use the computer as a guitar playing "robot" to give you a guitar signal to experiment with.

*The re-amp box changes the level to be "guitarish".

Dave.
Click to expand...

Hi guys, no, I didn't get it wrong, I just drew the chain this way to say that ultimately reamping should sound as if I skipped all the steps in between and went straight from guitar to amp, right? In practice the 2 halves of that chain happen at different time, that's clear. I will edit the post to avoid misunderstandings, though, and hopefully in a few hours add some clips.

I got quite all steps of the reamping process. The impedance conversion, the differences in level, etc. And yet it still does not quite sound like it should. Let me make some quick clips ;-)
 
JLondon said:
So for your use you should split your chain up into two steps.

1) Guitar- DI Box- Audio Interface- PC (for the dry signal)
2) PC-Audio Interface- Re-amp- Amp (To get the dry signal to the amp you want to model)

The problem with this is you need another system to mic the cab -(or something else like a recorder to play the dry signal)... to get the wet sound- hence the use of amp sims.
Click to expand...

Surely you can "DI" the split signal on say the left input and feed a mic from the cab into the right? All do'able with the meanest of interfaces. Best to setup for two MONO reordings not a single stereo.

Re DI boxes. Yes, you can use one as a reamper but the transformer ratio is wrong. Typically passive DIs are 10:1 even 12:1 and the other way round could load the AI output a bit hard (but no smoke!) and deliver much too hot a signal to the amp.
The Radial boxes use Jensen transformers and AFAICT it is the 1:1 line bridging 10k jobbie the JT-11P-1.

But DO experiment chaps! You can do no harm on the INPUT side of any 1/2 decent guitar amp.

Dave.
 
it feels like I am sending a louder signal, crispier, and with less "gain"
Click to expand...

Are you sure your computer DAW isnt adjusting the signal with an effect or a volume envelope or something in the chain?
 
Hmm? I would have thought re-amping is means to an end, not an end in itself?

Dave.
 
So guys, I experimented a bit to show you what I meant, and well, in the process, I got quite close to a right reamping, I guess.
I added a link to soundcloud in the first post. The first clip is recorded straight, the second is reamped. To achieve the right amount of gain, I had to set my output converters to +4db and then add 6 more dbs from the sequencer. Finally, I made a track (a bit glitchy, in some points) where the two tracks are switched at certain times.
I gotta say that now it's very very close, I have trouble distinguishing myself. However, sometimes I seem to perceive like the reamped one lacks a tad bit of bass and has a bit more spicky attack. However, they really are pretty close at this point.
 
Hmm? I would have thought re-amping is means to an end, not an end in itself?
Click to expand...

I think re-amping is so you can send the guitar player back home before he gets too drunk and ruins your recording session.
 
Well, the di box, and the recording level you set will affect the signal level going into the reamp box and, therefore, the amp.

I do find that I have to normalize the guitar track in order to get enough signal to the amp to make it react thr same.

I've also noticed that some amps don't play well with active circuits in front of them. My laney is one and a friend has a boutique amp I've forgotten the name of that also gets thin and lacks gain when reamping or using pedals in front of it.
 
Farview said:
Well, the di box, and the recording level you set will affect the signal level going into the reamp box and, therefore, the amp.

I do find that I have to normalize the guitar track in order to get enough signal to the amp to make it react thr same.

I've also noticed that some amps don't play well with active circuits in front of them. My laney is one and a friend has a boutique amp I've forgotten the name of that also gets thin and lacks gain when reamping or using pedals in front of it.
Click to expand...

Which Laney model is that Jay? I should very much like to study the input circuit schematic!

Dave.
 
Farview said:
Well, the di box, and the recording level you set will affect the signal level going into the reamp box and, therefore, the amp.

I do find that I have to normalize the guitar track in order to get enough signal to the amp to make it react thr same.

I've also noticed that some amps don't play well with active circuits in front of them. My laney is one and a friend has a boutique amp I've forgotten the name of that also gets thin and lacks gain when reamping or using pedals in front of it.
Click to expand...

Well, that might be the case of my Engl Ironball as well, cause it sounds a bit off, very hard to eq decently...
 
Its the old Laney aor heads from the late 1980's. Mine has been modified, but that was over 20 years ago and Im fuzzy on what was done. I do remember something about removing a resistor from the input and changing the big square resistor on the power tube socket. the rest of the mods revolved around changing the frequency of the boosts.
 
Farview said:
Its the old Laney aor heads from the late 1980's. Mine has been modified, but that was over 20 years ago and Im fuzzy on what was done. I do remember something about removing a resistor from the input and changing the big square resistor on the power tube socket. the rest of the mods revolved around changing the frequency of the boosts.
Click to expand...

Found a schematic for an AOR 30. Input grid is standard, can't think WTF anyone could or would WANT to do to that! Bias for the input is odd for an ECC83 at 2K7 and is even weirder at 10k for the next stage.
If I had to guess I would say it is an amp it is difficult to get a really clean tone out of?


Dave.
 
ecc83 said:
Found a schematic for an AOR 30. Input grid is standard, can't think WTF anyone could or would WANT to do to that! Bias for the input is odd for an ECC83 at 2K7 and is even weirder at 10k for the next stage.
If I had to guess I would say it is an amp it is difficult to get a really clean tone out of?


Dave.
Click to expand...
Mine is the anniversary aor 100 with the cascading preamp controls, not the aor with a single preamp and master volume. Unforunately, the AOR series had a few different versions. Mine was the one with 8 knobs, not 6. I don't think the anniversary edition was any different other than the white tolex.

I have no problem getting a clean tone out of it. But it does have that one quirk that it doesn't like active circuitry. If you plug a guitar with EMG's into it, you will have a hard time getting much distortion at all.
 
I used to have the same issue. My problem was that I had my Reamp box set too quiet. I have the Reamp JCR, so mine had that ability, yours does not. So my first guess would be that you're sending the signal out of the audio interface too quietly. Try adjusting the output level from your interface up or down and see what happens. You want the signal going into the amp from the interface to be the same level as direct from your guitar, which you could theoretically test by sending the signal to the amp from the interface and then plugging your guitar directly into the amp and playing a bit.

Not the most scientific of ways, but after I turned up the volume on my box, all of a sudden, my reamps sounded "right," and not like the way you described.
 
MrWrenchey said:
I used to have the same issue. My problem was that I had my Reamp box set too quiet. I have the Reamp JCR, so mine had that ability, yours does not. So my first guess would be that you're sending the signal out of the audio interface too quietly. Try adjusting the output level from your interface up or down and see what happens. You want the signal going into the amp from the interface to be the same level as direct from your guitar, which you could theoretically test by sending the signal to the amp from the interface and then plugging your guitar directly into the amp and playing a bit.

Not the most scientific of ways, but after I turned up the volume on my box, all of a sudden, my reamps sounded "right," and not like the way you described.
Click to expand...

Yes, indeed that kind of worked: by setting the AI converters to +4db and adding 6db too from cubase, the response is quite the same.
Now the problem is that what I'm recording sound like a rhinoceros rolling on mud, but that's a different story :D
 
ECC83, I'm having a really hard time finding the AOR Pro Tube 100 series 1 schematic. I can find the series 2 everywhere, but I don't know what got changed. The obvious change was they went from an impedance switch to the 5 outputs for the different loads. I know that they also started using transformers from a different company. They didn't sound the same as the series 1 heads, but I don't know if it was a design thing, or a parts supply thing.

The series 2 heads were much fizzier and not as crunchy. That might be a series 2 aor 30 schematic you are looking at.
 
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