really nice pianos

  • Thread starter Thread starter wes480
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tdukex -
I'm not diss'in your Petrof, but I played many of them before I bought my current piano, and the differences in tone, and action was so widely varied that it gave me pause. But if you like the way your's sounds, that's really all that matters.

In my findings, grands less than 6' simply don't have the tone at the low end register. This is due in part to the decreased tension on the bass strings. This decreased tension also seems to play havoc on the windings, making them loosen or separate from the core string over time, and thus, imparting a buzzing sound to the low end.

The "Piano Book", while a great resource in its own right, is really a collection of opinions. Albeit educated opinions at that, and from some very knowledge people, but still a collection of opinions. A great place to start to be sure, but not the be-all-end-all in piano selection.

If you're a player, buying a piano is such a personal choice that you really have to play several of them, decide which ones you like best, narrow those down to which one you can afford, and take the plunge!
 
Light said:
From my experience, strictly as an engineer, not a player, Littledog's advice is exactly right. I would judge Yamahas a little better than he does, but it is all a matter of style and preference.
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Thanks for the kind words, but I can't find anything that I said about Yamaha in my post that can be construed as critical - all i said about them is I rated them much higher than Kawais.

They are clearly the best of the Asian pianos, especially when it comes to durability. My personal preference is for a darker sound on solo stuff, but Yamahas are often perfect for smooth jazz, rock, and salsa.

Drummers have the luxury of switching snare drums or cymbals from song to song during a recording session. Too bad pianists can't do the same!
 
Yeah, Michael and Littledog, I hear what you are saying. And I agree there is a huge difference in the bass of a "real" grand and a baby.

When my wife and I went shopping we listened to some "real" grands (7'+) just for reference (Steinway, Yamaha, Bosendorfer, Shimmel). They were awesome (except the Yamaha). I really liked the 7' Shimmel (I think that was the size). But although a fantastic bargain IMO, it was still quite a ways out of our $16,000 price range.

My wife definitely wanted a baby grand (space reasons and looks), and the Petrof just sounded the best to us--and we auditioned a LOT of pianos.

Anyway, my only point, illustrated by analogy, is that just because my Webber OM guitar doesn't have the same wonderful bass response of a Martin D-28, it doesn't mean a good flat picker can't make it sound kickin' on a bluegrass run. No, it won't bowl you over like the D-28, but it WILL sound good.

BTW, Petrofs are made in the Czech Republic. A single craftsman is supposedly responsible for each piano from start to finish. Petrof manufactures a lot of their own sub-assemblies and parts, including sound boards, pin blocks, keyboards, hammers, strings, and other wood and metal parts. The action is Renner-Petrof. The soundboards are reputed to be made from dense-ringed, radial cut resonant spruce.

Here are some quotes from the 2000-01 "Piano" book:

"Once they are properly serviced, they are very fine, solidly built, good looking, lovely sounding pianos."

"The ones built today are better than the ones five years ago."

"Today, most of the problems are normal (or trivial)."

"Grands are capable of gorgeous sound, but sometimes it has to be coaxed out of the extremely hard hammers."

Buy a Petrof today.:D
 
Thanks for the info about Petrofs, tdudex.

I admit, I haven't been keeping up with the business side of piano manufacturing for many years. I think I got scared off in the 1980's when Bösendorfer was bought by Kimball! :eek: :eek: :eek:

I have no idea who owns what now.

I also remember a very fine piano manufactured in small quantities for a while around here called Falcone. I played one of the first nine-foot grands they built when it took up residence in the Meridien Hotel in Boston around 1985, I think. Very nice instrument. Anyone know if they are still in business?
 
littledog said:


Thanks for the kind words, but I can't find anything that I said about Yamaha in my post that can be construed as critical - all i said about them is I rated them much higher than Kawais.

They are clearly the best of the Asian pianos, especially when it comes to durability. My personal preference is for a darker sound on solo stuff, but Yamahas are often perfect for smooth jazz, rock, and salsa.

Drummers have the luxury of switching snare drums or cymbals from song to song during a recording session. Too bad pianists can't do the same!
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I did not think you were being critical, but you seemed to like them less than the Steinways and such. It is without question an issue of what you will be using it for. All I meant was that, for what I have used them for (mostly pop, rock, and jazz) I like the Yamahas I have recorded more than any other pianos I have used.

Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
 
Smething interesting from my above referenced visit to Steinway's showroom were the comments from the salesperson and I would wonder what others think about these words of wisdom. Whereas vintage instruments are a well known phenomenon, the Steinway rep indicated that purchasing an older piano is most definitely not advisable. According the this man, pianos do not improve with age but rather, due to the extreme stress on the parts from the strings, over time, the pianos lose quite a bit of their life.

This does make sense logically since the amount of pound pressure per square inch or whatever the measurement might be has to be quiate high. Over time the soundboard may warp, the pins lose thier grip etc. Thus over time the piano does not tend to sound better but worse.

Whereas a violin made in the 18th century might be a true prize and worth a small fortune, a piano from that period is bound to be junk if it is even still in one piece.

Now, the question is, how accuarate is this type of analysis and, is there any point where a piano might improve over a short time before serious detrioration becomes a factor?
 
I'm not really an expert but I can say that yes, pianos do have a limited lifespan (comparable to the human lifespan). And it is because the metal frame (or what ever it's called in english) will fatigue and in the end crack.
 
This is an interesting thread for me, in part because I recall our own decision process in purchasing our piano, and in part because a year ago I went through a comprehensive review of available pianos on the market for a local church. I do not play the instrument; my spouse is classically trained.

What I learned was that, like anything else, these instruments occupy their respective positions in discrete market segments. Their design, build and pricing reflects the combinations most attractive to their target market. On top of that, a piano (or piano design) can be personal to the pianist. That personal bias (or more fairly, well deserved preference) is evident in this thread.

For instance, nobody will dispute the excellence of a Steinway instrument. Yet many concert pianists prefer, and specify, Yamaha - typically available for significantly less money. Why is that? Isn't Steinway the "best"?

Well, no.

"Best" is a misplaced concept here.

I found equal dedication to excellence in a number of brands, targeted to a number of markets. Our personal choice (over a Yamaha) was a Kawai RX2. Is it "better" than a Yamaha? No. It is, however, very different. What made the cut for us was Kawai's extremely responsive action, preferred by a player who concentrates on expressiveness. Yamaha's action is more robust and less responsive than the Kawai concert grade mechanism. Is that "bad"? No! It is simply part of the design philosophy of the instrument. A Yamaha's action is characteristic and consistent from one unit to the next. There is such a thing as a Yamaha "feel" and it is different from a Steinway "feel."

We have had professional concert pianists play our instrument and marvel at it. Does that mean they will now specify Kawai at their next concert? Of course not. They have arrived at their preferences through experience.

We also learned of the high markup / low volume nature of piano pricing, and opportunities (no, not the "discount" "truckload" "college" sales) for a buyer knowledgeable about the distribution process.

Finally, we learned that there really are a number of "best" brands out there - and well deserved. The choice we made was far and away the best for us; but we fully understand that another person will go through the process and come up with an entirely different result, for equally good reasons. That's one of the neat things about the choices we have. YMMV.

[Minor nonsubstantive edits after Sennheiser's post]
 
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What made the cut for us was Kawai's extremely responsive action, preferred by a player who concentrates on expressiveness. Yamaha's action is more robust and less responsive than the Kawai concert grade mechanism.
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I've never played a Kawai, but I thought the Yamaha's were extremely responsive. Moreso than a Steinway of comparable age. The Kawai must be extrememly light on the touch.
 
A postscript

I got lost in my own eloquence and forgot to mention that a high grade humidifier / heater / electronic humistat option is probably a necessity here in the Northeast. It's not wildly expensive considering the investment in a new instrument (top end systems can be had for about $300) and by automatically regulating the humidity year round directly underneath the soundboard, it will ensure stability to the instrument - meaning long life. The worst thing you could do is let something like this live an an area of climatic extremes without some kind of humidity buffer. :cool:
 
Re: A postscript

Treeline said:
I got lost in my own eloquence and forgot to mention that a high grade humidifier / heater / electronic humistat option is probably a necessity here in the Northeast. It's not wildly expensive considering the investment in a new instrument (top end systems can be had for about $300) and by automatically regulating the humidity year round directly underneath the soundboard, it will ensure stability to the instrument - meaning long life. The worst thing you could do is let something like this live an an area of climatic extremes without some kind of humidity buffer. :cool:
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Thats very true, only here in central Texas, we look for DE-humidifiers.
The room my piano resides in now is very climatically controlled. Temperatures range from 68 - 72 degrees F and humidity is controlled between 45% and 65%.
My technician tells me these are ideal environmental conditions for the piano.
 
Jack Hammer said:
Smething interesting from my above referenced visit to Steinway's showroom were the comments from the salesperson and I would wonder what others think about these words of wisdom. Whereas vintage instruments are a well known phenomenon, the Steinway rep indicated that purchasing an older piano is most definitely not advisable. According the this man, pianos do not improve with age but rather, due to the extreme stress on the parts from the strings, over time, the pianos lose quite a bit of their life.

This does make sense logically since the amount of pound pressure per square inch or whatever the measurement might be has to be quiate high. Over time the soundboard may warp, the pins lose thier grip etc. Thus over time the piano does not tend to sound better but worse.

Whereas a violin made in the 18th century might be a true prize and worth a small fortune, a piano from that period is bound to be junk if it is even still in one piece.

Now, the question is, how accuarate is this type of analysis and, is there any point where a piano might improve over a short time before serious detrioration becomes a factor?
Click to expand...

Well my moms steinway was made in the 1890's....Its kinda cool, all the signatures inside it of the tuners with dates from the 1890's and up.

And it sounds and plays fantastic.
 
If a piano has been well maintained and kept in a humidity - controlled environment, it will last longer! How much depends on all those variables.

Our church had an old Chickering ( I believe) that had all the tricks done to keep it alive. Epoxy in the split pinblock, mongrel strings, odd fittings and patches. I figured it was built around 1900 and had suffered a hard life. When I looked up the serial number, the date of manufacture was 1966! The story is that it had been donated about twenty years ago as a workable piano, but there was no room in the sanctuary. It lived in a dank basement room in an unheated part of a convent; nobody knew anything about it. By the time it was put back into service, the damage was done. Nearly criminal...
 
Well, we obviously can't compare a 300 year old violin to a 300 year old piano, because the piano has only been around in it's current form for about 120 years.

There are obvious advantages to a new instrument A brand new concert grand will usually cost you more than an old one of the same brand, so it's true that pianos don't appreciate in value like a violin might. The exception, of course, would be a piano with a "historical" connection (like it used to belong to Paderewski, Art Tatum, or Professor Longhair.)

But in other ways an old piano is like an old car. It will have it's own unique sound and personality, and, like a car, you will have to do regular maintenance and at some point major overhauls.

My piano (Steinway B) is 105 years old. Did I buy it because it was that old? No. I bought it because I couldn't afford a new Steinway B at more than three times the price of what I paid for mine.

But 105 years old is somewhat misleading - most of the piano has been replaced and rebuilt over the years. I certainly wouldn't get too excited about playing any piano with 105 year old action, hammers, strings, and dampers.

But still, sometimes the old instruments have a uniquely lovely sound that is never quite duplicated by the brand new ones. Even piano dealers will tell you that the new instrument you are buying will age and mellow over the years, and may sound better when it is 10 years old than when it is right off the truck.
 
Reminds me of my Grandfather's axe

It's a great old axe. Had the handle replaced twice and the head three times. Best old axe I ever had.
 
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