Really Nice Mic Preamp Suggestions HELP!!!

  • Thread starter Thread starter theodd
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theodd said:
There are tons of bands that do what we want to do. Grandaddy, Wilco, Pedro the Lion all record themselves in their houses, not in million dollar studios.
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Interesting you mention Wilco. I have a bit of familiarity with that particular band, and know a few folks who have worked with them. I can pretty much tell you that Summerteeth wasn't recorded in anyone's house ! (in fact that one was done a few blocks away from me at King Size on Western). :D And it certainly wasn't self-produced. And yea, sure, a lot of Yankee Hotel Foxtrot was tracked at the band's loft, but CRC (where most of the overdubs and mixing were done) certainly ain't a cheap studio.

And besides . . . guys like Jay Bennet are rare. He's every bit as much a recording engineer / producer as he is a musician. And his experience and competence in that realm would rival many of the best in the industry. And while Jay certainly likes his toys, he'll also be the first to tell you that the fancy gear doesn't mean a whole lot. It's what's in your head.

Pedro the Lion and Granddaddy are actually a couple of really good example of what it sounds like you guys are trying to emulate. If that's your bag, and you guys really think you can pull it off yourselves, then go for it. Perhaps one of you is going to be the next Jay Bennet or David Bazan.

That doesn't mean it's advisable to do it. Bands like that who can skillfully wear both hats of recording engineer and musician are very rare. And it takes exceptionally multi-talented individuals to pull it off. I'm not by any means saying you "need to record in a multi-gazillion dollar studio."

But you shouldn't be in a position where you're still trying to sort out how to get guitar and vocal tracks you're happy with (hint: it ain't got much to do with the mic pre). You should have that one pretty much nailed and out of the way before you quit your day job . . . hence my expression of concern. For the kind of money you're looking to spend on mic pres, I could dig up at least 3 skilled recording engineers in and around NYC area that you could hire out to work on this thing with you. You'd most likely be able to use a lot of his gear, and you could still save $$ by not having to book time at a studio.

By the way . . . If you want to know what mic pre Pedro the Lion, Spoon, or Wilco would most likely use if they could only use one, it would most likely be a (Brent Averill) API 312. Just thought I'd throw you a bone. :D A little birdie told me that one.
 
Yeah I was mostly referring to YHF. I konw that all those folks probably mixed in big studios, but the recording thing is what impresses me about all those bands. And you're right, you have to be multi talented and very skilled. Another one is the Wrens from NJ. That band is just amazing and they recorded everything in their house. I can't take "The Meadowlands' out of my CD player. Just incredible stuff.

Thanks for the gear tip. Those guys sound is definately more inline of what we are after. As soon as I get the mp3's of our latest EP I'll post it so you can see what I'm talking about. Part of why I think the guitars and vocals are lacking is a time thing though. We always have to RUSH through it. There are always these crazy deadlines that all bands have to deal with. We track vocals in our friends studio at 3 AM because it's free. We have two weeks to do all the guitars because our lease is about to end and we have to move on. All band have this stuff to deal with, but we are looking to put ourselves in a position where we can take time and get the tones and takes we want. This is not going to be a "live" album so we can expiriment with things.

I have never heard of hiring an engineer to help with a recording process but not be in the studio. I'll PM you for more details about that. Yet and still, we are really looking to do it ourselves. To make our own mistakes and get better with each one.

I'm sure this is an entirely different subject all together...but how did you get your start? You can PM me with that one if you'd like or just ignore it if you don't have time.

Speaking of day job, I have to get back to it. Thanks for your help.
 
All I really want to know is if you had to choose one pre to run 90% of your signals through what would it be?
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An API 312 racked by Brent Averill.
 
I love my Chandler TG2:)

There are plenty of engineers that you could hire. It can be very helpful to have someone to run the mechanics of a session so you can fully focus on your music, and also just to have an extra ear that hasn't already been overexposed to your music and is fully objective.

Also, if you want big guitars, maybe look for a different mic. Try out a Royer 121 or 122:)
 
The API looks cool. Now that I see a picture of it I think I know someone who has it. I might be able to talk to them about it or even better hear it. Very cool.

Thanks guys.
 
A pre that I could run everything through on a project if I needed to... wow, in many ways that's a very tall order. I think I would advise that you look for a pre with a lot of flexibility to the tones you can add with it... something that had a couple of impedance options, something that had some input vs. output gain scaling options, something that has a dual output so you can go straight from the pre to an A/D as well as your monitor desk so you don't lose the vibe of the performance dealing with latency issues. Those are the features I would look for... the actual flavor of the available tones from the unit are a personal decision I wouldn't hazard a guess to recommend unless I knew you and your music better.

The post that mentioned the tone of the room was rather spot on. Unless the place you're planning to rent has like 12 ft. ceilings you're probably looking at a good bit of midrange honk that will come from the parallel ceiling and floor [not too many houses I've seen don't sport that feature so I feel it can be safely assumed that the ceiling will be parallel to the floor wherever you end up recording]. You can do some stuff with furniture and build some free standing walls [gobos] without too much struggle or expense but you're going to start to get into some real money if you try to do anything to the ceiling... and unless you own the house, it ain't gonna be worth the expense.

One of the things I've found that helps control the honk a bit is to get whatever speaker you're recording off the floor on something like a road case or a barstool. If you can get the cabinet off the floor you'll achieve two things, the first is that the cabinet won't be coupling with the floor so what you hear from the cabinet will actually be the sound coming from the speaker, as oppossed to the sound being the sound of the cabinet coupled to the floor [coupling gives you a sort of false bottom end that isn't actually coming from the speakers so unless you're micing the cabinet from like 2-3 feet out you're not going to be getting the 'false bottom' that is created when the cabinet is sitting on the floor]... the second thing is that a speaker cabinet is way easier to mic when you're not crawling around on your knees.

You may also want to try recording guitars in different rooms... RTH GTR-1 in the living room, RTH GTR-2 in the kitchen... guitar solos in the front hall... experiment, figure out what each acoustic environment can bring to the table. Closets with great big loud amps can be a lovely thing... with somewhat airtight closets you can actually raise the airpressure which will give you a smoothness and compression like you rarely ever hear... you've go the time, experiment like mad for the first couple weeks you're in the house.

Vocals... well that's a whole different story. Finding a mic that will couple properly with the singer(s) is going to be your biggest struggle, once that's found you'll want to find a pre that couples well with the microphone you've chosen for the singer... if it's the "one" pre then that's where the ability for tonal flexibility will come in handiest.

From your description it seems like you have your shit somewhat together... I'd probably recommend that you seriously consider picking up a serious A/D-D/A converter so you'll actually record all of what you output from the pre and then actually hear what the hell it was you did with a good D/A... but I suppose it's not mandatory.

As far as rentals in the NY Metro area go... I would highly recommend "Dreamhire" their number is 1-800-234-7536. They're pretty expert in dealing with these kinds of extended projects, their maintenance is generally excellent, their staff is generally knowledgable [and they pay attention to detail like making sure you have all the right cables, etc.], and their rates on longterm stuff are really rather reasonable.

Best of luck with the project.
 
Thanks Fletcher! Actually, that's just the sort of thing we are looking forward too. We have no idea about the space we'll be in. But whatever it is, I want to know what every hallway, closet and room sound like. I don't care how or where we get the sounds, just that that we get them.

Question: Since our only cabs for the guitars are 4X12's, does it matter if we leave them on the ground and mic one of the upper two speakers? What I mean is, will we still get that weird coupling effect you were mentioning?

I hadn't considered an A/D-D/A converter. We have the Digi 002. Even in that case you would use one. Forgive my ingnorance on the subject, I don't think we have ever been in a studio that used one, or if we were no one made mention of it. How could it help us? Where in the chain would it go? I'm assuming after the pre and before the 002 right?
 
fletcher's right about doing things with amp placement & positioning to make a huge difference no matter what pre you end up with.

between 500-1500 is a big range; if you can stay in the 1500-2000 range a lot of possibilities open up because you can get a couple really good things so it's not JUST two of the same channel you're putting everything through. i've found that some of the issues you'll encounter in mixing come from the same flavor of pre stacking up on track after track... but you work with what you've got, and great records have been made on crappy built-in pres of a 4-track...

if you could buy 4 channels of Sytek (i think $700-800) and 2 channels of the Averill API's you'd be in the $2000 range total, and have some good room to work.

or you could get an Really Nice Mic Pre from FMR for like $475 and spend $1300 (i THINK) on one of the Vintech x73i's -- i've only used an X73 (a bit more $$) but when i did i loved it on most things, and the EQ is great! again you're above $1500...

or an RMP & RNC combo and one channel of Great River...

it's fun spending other people's money!

but seriously i know it's hard to bite the bullet on the cash, and people will ALWAYS recommend stuff out of whatever range you cite (look i just did), but if your record benefits, you get to live with that record forever, and you likely won't remember the extra $500 you spent back in '04...

plus, most of the stuff people will recommend here are REAL pres that aren't going to lose much value in the event you have to re-sell them after you're done...

have fun!
 
Lilcapn, you just gave me a ton of homework. Thanks so much. i will read up on all those pres and get back to you with questions. Spending other people's money IS fun. Even if I never post, I'm always thinking what my answers would be on these boards. Thanks again!
 
theodd said:
The API looks cool. Now that I see a picture of it I think I know someone who has it. I might be able to talk to them about it or even better hear it. Very cool.

Thanks guys.
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There's a handfull of popular mikes ran through the API 312's here:
http://www.nowhereradio.com/artists/album.php?aid=1656&alid=-1
Its not real scientific, but it'll give you an idea as to what they sound like.

Check out the SM57 thru an API 312 clip.
 
theodd said:
Question: Since our only cabs for the guitars are 4X12's, does it matter if we leave them on the ground and mic one of the upper two speakers? What I mean is, will we still get that weird coupling effect you were mentioning?
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It's not really a weird coupling effect... it's more like applying a little physics... but that's semantics so who cares.

Yeah, the cabinet will indeed couple to the floor, yeah it will affect the tone, and yeah, what you have coming out of the speakers, even the top speakers will be different from what you're hearing in the room.

As for A/D-D/A converters... bro, that's the last link in your chain... and your chain is only as good as your weakest link. Everything you put into your computer will have to go through an 'analog to digital' conversion the quality of that conversion process can either help or hinder your progress... and no matter what you may have read in "Rolling Stone" to the contrary... the audio out of a Pro Tools rig sucks.

There are several factors within the conversion process that have to be considered, the clock, the analog electronics [including the quality of the aliasing filter] prior to the A/D conversion chip and how the overall tone and texture of the sound of the converter will compliment [or detract from] your music. There are some converters I've found that have a different midrange character and while not necessarily as "pristene" sounding can have a very musical effect... in some ways it's a matter of taste, but it takes a few steps up the ladder to get to where it really is a matter of taste [like no, a "Swissonic" box isn't a step up, it's a step sideways at best].

The analog electronics in a 002 bite weenie, the stability of the clock in a 002 is sorely lacking... so what you end up with is audio that went through poorly designed filter sets into a festival of "jitter" and is trying to come out the other side as music... it'll come out as a representation of your song, but you seemed to striving for better depth and breath from your audio so you might consider this an impediment. Fortunately the rocket surgeons at ShitiDesign gave the unit a digital input so you can use a decent converter set should the notion strike you.

If you wanna invest $50- in a really interesting set of A/D comparison CD's the 3D Audio AD/CD is about the best I've ever heard [it's also the only comparison test CD, with the possible exception of the 3D Audio "DAW SUM" test, that I think is worth a shit... but that's a tale for another day].

Another thing you should realize is that without a pretty good Digital to Analog converter you don't really know what the hell it is you just recorded. You'll have a vague idea, but you won't have access to all the overtones captured in your music, nor will you have quite the size nor depth of soundfield with which you can place the sounds that comprise your music.

Sorry to install a pin in your balloon... on the bright side, I've been called an "elitist asshole" more than a few times so you should feel free to take it all with a grain of salt.
 
Don't worry about it Fletcher. I had heard the converters in Digi stuff weren't all that. But I also saw the prices on some of the A/D converters out there and that was enough to make me try to forget the whole thing.

That said, the band is embarking on a different sort of project here. We want this one to be different. So this might be better for a differetn thread, but, can you give me some examples of ADDA converters I could research that would play nice with my 002?

As a side note, and I'm probably going to get my head taken off here, but I'm assuming the converters in the Digimax LT we have aren't going to cut it either. We lightpipe in with that so it's not touching the digi stuff...but still, I'm sure they aren't great. Are they the lesser of of two evils here? Anyone?
 
"...and no matter what you may have read in "Rolling Stone" to the contrary... the audio out of a Pro Tools rig sucks. ..."
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If I had a nickel for every RE that I've heard say that, I'd be rich, yet every hackin', thrashing, wanna be muso that's willing to go into a studio has the mind set that if your recording digital, and NOT using Protools, then you're audio's going to suck.
I wish there were a way to educate those people. :(
 
I defiantely think your guitar tracking problems are with your guitar amps. Wow. The amps you have listed would be extremely difficult to track well, even with a high-end preamp. The biggest guitar sounds I've ever gotten were with a Fender Blues Junior, a Vox AC15, and a little vibro champ. Less volume will give you more headroom. The low wattage amps always break up real nice even though it's quiet. It might sound kinda funny to you in the room, especially listening to those big high gain amps you've been running. Throw a 57 on it, turn it up, and track it. I promise it will sound so much better than those big beasts you've been lugging around. If you're looking for that really high gain sound, try adding a rat pedal in the line... or my favorite the Seymor Duncan Pick up Booster pedal. It slams the front end of the guitar amp and compresses really nicely, esp with that little blues junior.

Most of all, creativity, good performances, and good tones are going to put that "life" in your recordings. Not a preamp.

Let us know what you did and how it turns out.
 
Thanks vanguard. We actually had toyed with the idea of using smaller combo amps but you know, we have these amps and we LOVE them. They sound so killer live, but I think there might be some truth to what you are saying though. I know a friend of mine who has an AC15. Maybe I can borrow that from him for a night or two and see what turns up.

Interesting that monster amps are difficult to record. Is that how you all feel? Does anyone else have trouble recording half-stack type rigs?
 
Michael Jones said:
That is a good deal!
The $350 is new/retail.
But hell, I'd have picked one up for 50 bucks!
It actually has a pretty nice flavor to it, just don't drive the "tube character" to hard, and I think you'll enjoy using it.

This was done with the ART PRO MPA, and a pair of Neumann TLM 103's on a 7'-2" Boston Grand Piano. I think that particular chain delivered a nice, rich tone.
http://artists.iuma.com/site-bin/streammp3.m3u?190193
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Thanks for the clip. i haven't actually got to use it yet. I'm still in the process of finishing up my small home studio. I also bought a Yamaha MLA7, (1) MXL V67, and (2) MXL 603s that I haven't had a chance to use yet. It's going to be like christmas.

Sorry for the off topicness.

and now back to regular programming.

fucanay
 
theodd said:
Interesting that monster amps are difficult to record. Is that how you all feel? Does anyone else have trouble recording half-stack type rigs?
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The trouble with them is that every amp has sort of an ideal volume at which it will record best. Particularly when you're talking about overdriven guitar. Slipperman did a big, overly-complex rant on the subject in another forum that has sort of turned in to folklore. There was a lot of truth to it, and the long and short of it is that there is a point, volume-wise, at which the speaker will just begin to "interact" with the cabinet. Supposedly, this is the point at which it will be ideal for recording purposes.

And anything above or below that point won't do for slippie. :D The idea is that, with larger cabinets, you're really going to have to crank it to unhealthy volumes in order to get this so-called "ideal interaction." You'll hear a lot of stories about recording Billy Corgan (and many others in fact), and engineers having to wear the isolation headphones used by air traffic personel and so on when setting up mics for such sessions.

I guess if you're out in the styx, and you have the ability to crank the amp to the necessary levels, then you'll probably be just fine.

Otherwise, you might consider a lower-wattage amp. The idea being that you don't have to crank those puppies nearly as loud in order to get the same kind of "speaker / cabinet / air interaction."
 
We have several "monster amps" at our place... perhaps one of my favorites is a Musicman HD-130 that was heavily modified for Joe Perry in the 70's [even has the Aerosmith logo on the front]... damn amp is so loud I actually had to get custom 12" drivers made for the cabinet as the Celestion 'Greenbacks' I had been using went soft after about 4-5 hours of use and had to be replaced.

Since then I've run into this wonderful box from THD called the "Hotplate" which allows me to get the tone I'm looking to achieve without pushing the speakers to the point where they're going to go soft too quickly. This isn't like a 'Sholtz (sp?) "Power Soak"... it actually sounds good [it gets out of the way very nicely until you get into too much attenuation].

Small amps do often work great... but... if you have a somewhat decent sized room and aren't "close mic'ing" nothing beats the recording of moving a whole lot of air as you can only do with a larger amp and a bunch of speakers.

... and yes, the Digimax LT sucks hamster dick... waste of time and money [IMNTLBFHO].
 
See, right there then that could be half the problem with the guitar sound. The last EP we did we had to record most of the guitars are our friends apt in Brooklyn. Couldn't turn them up to loud at all because it was literally an apt building. We stuck a Marshal cab in a closet and then played with the sunn, mesa an his koch heads until we got something usable.

Here's the deal. I got a chance to put these up last nigt. If you want to hear what I'm talking about head to the link below and let me know what you think. I put one track from every release.

Kong - first record when we were 19 recording in our parents basement. Mastered by us.

At Midnight - recorded in a huge church in the country side for our next LP. Mastered by Emily Lazar

Downsizing - recorded in a recital hall at a Skidmore College (guitars done at our friends apt in Brooklyn. Mastered by Emily Lazar.

http://www.angeloftheodd.com/mp3s.html

If any of you have time or are curious you can check out these recordings and let me know what you think we can work on recording wise. Be kind though, we are really proud of most of this stuff. hahahaha.

See, Billy Corgan is probably my favorite artist. When we were young we modeled a lot of what we did after him. Not really the sound of our music, but we read those articles where he talked about recording so we pretty much tried all that stuff. He also did amps really really quite and cranked the pres. I can't wait to try firing these beasts up though. We will be in the stix so there is no reason not to.

Digimax really sucks that bad? They don't sound horrible to me. How else are you supposed to get 18 channels of audio out of your 002? I know there were a couple other boxes that do 8 channels of digi audio but I read good things about the digi max. I mean, this is "home recording" right? Let me know what you use. I'm curious. Still, would you say the interna 002 pres are better or the digimax LT pres.

Thanks guys.
 
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