ez_willis
.
I am still failing to see how a human drummer playing to a click is "rigid". 
M
Micter
No Title
noisewreck said:
I'm sorry but you still haven't gotten my point. You can map out tempo and time changes! I do it all the time
c7sus
Disenfranchised Member
A drummer told me a while back if you want to learn to swing set your metronome to only sound on the 2 and the 4 beat.
I haven't tried it because I only play to a click when recording.
I haven't tried it because I only play to a click when recording.
Supercreep
Lizard People
noisewreck said:
Maybe all your music is like that.
noisewreck
New member
You can map out tempo and time changes, but it's not going to be the same as natural retardandi and accelerandi.Micter said:
noisewreck
New member
I don't think there is a need for ad hominem attacks. They are never effective ways of argument.Supercreep said:
P-J
Rank Amateur
danny.guitar said:"If you can't keep time without a click track then maybe you shouldn't be recording".
Tongue in cheek? Not sure, but if not, it's elitist and a waste of peoples time.
It's not up to you if someone should record or not, and I'd rather hear amateur and slightly 'off' music to that made by someone of the above opinion.
P-J
Rank Amateur
beezelbubba said:I use a click because I like to, and don't give a fuck what you do or think!
This is the only post on the thread I can agree with!
I do xxxxxx because that's what I want to do, live with it!.
That applies to anything, if you don't like it, don't listen to the music.
D
danny.guitar
Guest
P-J said:
It was in response to people saying "If you can't play to a click track then you shouldn't be recording".
C
cusebassman
Freakin' sweet
noisewreck said:
I won't argue that the time variant sounded good, since I have no idea. But it was nice and convenient that you could sequence over their dynamic tempo with a timing grid... it becomes more problematic when you are recording all the instruments yourself and are not using a computer.
If you want a static tempo, play with one, and record with a click for ease of playing... if the click is too sterile, create a generic drum pattern or something, and play to that.
As beezel said, I'll do what I want, and fuck anybody who gives me any guff
SouthSIDE Glen
independentrecording.net
No, it's up to the individual, you're right. It'd be nice, however, if they would do the world a favor and respect the the art when making the decision.P-J said:
Too many people these days forget that it's supposed to be about the music and the audience, and not about themselves. They should drop the ego before they decide if they're ready to record or whether instead they really should learn how to play or sing first. It's called having some pride and taking some responsibility.
Just because one can record doesn't mean they should record.
G.
C
cusebassman
Freakin' sweet
Supercreep said:
ad hominem or not, he might be right
Wouldn't know, since I haven't heard it, but there is always a chance...
O
ofajen
Daddy-O Daddy-O Baby
In the rare case where I record other people's music, we have done as much as possible live up front to get the whole feel of the piece down at once. No click. Indeed, I'm hoping to do more live location recording because there are much better sounding big rooms in town than my little studio and I have plenty of Studio Traps if there are gremlins to tame. Since I record most everything except vocals in one pass, it's no big deal without a click.
When I do stuff one track at a time, I still often start recording on the 1/2" 4-track M-79, partly because I don't want to see stuff on a grid, and partly because it sounds so amazing. Also, a lot of my music has tempo and time signature changes and I trust myself to get that right, even if it take a couple of tries. When I'm just getting ideas going, I'll start with the part that has the best rhythmic motor or sense of the timing, to make it easier to follow with the other tracks. Sometimes I end up having to rerecord, once I've got a clearer sense of the whole piece, but it's better not to have the click in the way when I'm working with the ideas at first.
I used to play to my TR-606 sometimes on simpler stuff, but it went psycho on me and doesn't work anymore. If I'm working in the DAW up front, I may use the click, but sometimes a regular click spoils the feel of the rhythm I'm working with or the tempo changes. In that case, I'll record a MIDI drum or percussion part that works with the rhythm of the piece with the DrumKAT without the click and then sync the DAW to that and use it like a drum machine.
Cheers,
Otto
When I do stuff one track at a time, I still often start recording on the 1/2" 4-track M-79, partly because I don't want to see stuff on a grid, and partly because it sounds so amazing. Also, a lot of my music has tempo and time signature changes and I trust myself to get that right, even if it take a couple of tries. When I'm just getting ideas going, I'll start with the part that has the best rhythmic motor or sense of the timing, to make it easier to follow with the other tracks. Sometimes I end up having to rerecord, once I've got a clearer sense of the whole piece, but it's better not to have the click in the way when I'm working with the ideas at first.
I used to play to my TR-606 sometimes on simpler stuff, but it went psycho on me and doesn't work anymore. If I'm working in the DAW up front, I may use the click, but sometimes a regular click spoils the feel of the rhythm I'm working with or the tempo changes. In that case, I'll record a MIDI drum or percussion part that works with the rhythm of the piece with the DrumKAT without the click and then sync the DAW to that and use it like a drum machine.
Cheers,
Otto
guttapercha
New member
Even the real pros use a click track. I'm talking about NY and LA top shelf session guys for jingles and records. I spent a significant part of my childhood (70s and 80s) hanging out in the control rooms of places like A&R (both locations), Mediasound, Clinton, and Power Station because my dad, a top shelf session player during that time period, took me everywhere. Click tracks were ubiquitous.
F
funkydrummer
New member
i always record to a click track. usually when i record, i am playing all the instruments and need something to serve as a guide for the song. if i am recording drums in a group, i will use a click because i record all my parts by myself. when playing live, i do not use a click track.
noisewreck
New member
I still don't understand why everyone is only talking about click track?
What about dynamics? Pitch?
From some of the posts it seems that you feel I am promoting sloppiness, which is not the case. I am raising an issue with using technology as a crutch.
What about dynamics? Pitch?
From some of the posts it seems that you feel I am promoting sloppiness, which is not the case. I am raising an issue with using technology as a crutch.
guttapercha
New member
noisewreck said:
Your original post focused on timing, so I figured that was the dominant theme here. Click-tracks aside, I agree with you about the crutch factor in many other instances.
C
cusebassman
Freakin' sweet
noisewreck said:
Yeah, I also figured we were just talking about tempo. Sorry 'bout that.
I guess you mean to say that when you recorded this material to a click, everything came out sterile and lifeless.
Well, the dynamics and pitch shouldn't be effected by the use of a click-track. At that point you have to ask yourself if you are a good enough musician TO use a click-track, and still give a good performance (the general 'you'). As some have said, you can play around the click track and still use it as a reference. But if you are getting so caught up in using it to keep your time perfect that you are sacrificing other qualities of the performance, then you probably should toss it... or practice with it on until you are happy with the result of the combination of timed recording and performance quality.
noisewreck
New member
Dude, you totally didn't get my post.
Nope, that's not what I am saying.
I am saying this:
1a. Too many people use click tracks because they can't fuckin keep time, have no sense of rhythm, and don't wanna face the reality.
1b. We are so fuckin used to hearing all that sequenced/arpeggiated 80s synth stuff that we shudder at the idea of having accelerandi and ritardandi in our music, we are afraid to have controlled changes in tempo.
2a. Too many fuckin people use Melodyne, Autotune, cut/paste of 60 billion takes to make one worthwhile listening to instead of practicing.
2b. Conversely some producers are willing to have a singer have a take after take after take so that they get all the notes perfect and forgo that one perfect take that missed a note or so... just because "oh my god... that note was off" Hang me now! Personally, I'd rather hear a great performance with one or two notes off than a pastiche of cut and paste nonsense.
3. We have come full circle back to Baroque times with tier dynamics. This section sounds quieter because less instruments are playing, that section sounds louder because more instruments are playing, and nothing in-between... while everything is compressed and is actually at the same level. A lot of classical recordings are guilty of this shit too. What's worse is that the average consumer is so fuckin used to this that they get annoyed with dynamic movie soundtracks. Take my dad for example. He's got the remote in his hand all the time, constantly fiddling with the volume on the damn TV and cussing out the poor film AE because the horse carriage all of a sudden sounds louder than the princess' conversation a second ago.
Nope, that's not what I am saying.
I am saying this:
1a. Too many people use click tracks because they can't fuckin keep time, have no sense of rhythm, and don't wanna face the reality.
1b. We are so fuckin used to hearing all that sequenced/arpeggiated 80s synth stuff that we shudder at the idea of having accelerandi and ritardandi in our music, we are afraid to have controlled changes in tempo.
2a. Too many fuckin people use Melodyne, Autotune, cut/paste of 60 billion takes to make one worthwhile listening to instead of practicing.
2b. Conversely some producers are willing to have a singer have a take after take after take so that they get all the notes perfect and forgo that one perfect take that missed a note or so... just because "oh my god... that note was off" Hang me now! Personally, I'd rather hear a great performance with one or two notes off than a pastiche of cut and paste nonsense.
3. We have come full circle back to Baroque times with tier dynamics. This section sounds quieter because less instruments are playing, that section sounds louder because more instruments are playing, and nothing in-between... while everything is compressed and is actually at the same level. A lot of classical recordings are guilty of this shit too. What's worse is that the average consumer is so fuckin used to this that they get annoyed with dynamic movie soundtracks. Take my dad for example. He's got the remote in his hand all the time, constantly fiddling with the volume on the damn TV and cussing out the poor film AE because the horse carriage all of a sudden sounds louder than the princess' conversation a second ago.
Z
Zed10R
New member
noisewreck said:
1. Maybe. Maybe not. Who cares...really? So what is some jerkoff in his own studio can't keep time to save his life? So what? Let him have his fun.
1b. 100% NOT TRUE. Totally false. The issue here is in application and honesty.....meaning....did you REALLY mean to play that verse faster than the previous verse? Or are you saying you did it on purpose because you are too effing godlike to admit you made a mistake? And....does that tempo variation add anything to the feel of the song? If it does..keep it. Who cares why it happened that way. If it doesn't...do yourself a favor and admit it....and re-record it. I think THAT is a bigger fucking problem.
2a. Yeah...agreed.
3. Well....I enjoy dynamic movie sounds tracks....but I gotta admit...sometime they can get a bit out of control obnoxious. Just cause you CAN make the horse and cart SO EFFING GOD DAMN LOUD IF BLOWS YOUR EARS OUT RIGHT AFTER A QUIET WHISPER DOESN'T MEAN YOU SHOULD. DAMMIT. Seriously. Some of that shit needs to be calmed down a bit.