Raising the overall level of a quiet mix

[tubby]

I've been working with a recording of my band made with my firepod and Cubase SE3. I have it sounding ok for a first attempt at a full mix, but I find when I send it to a .wav, or .aiff file to burn to cd, the level is very low. I've tried to boost the mix via normalizing all the tracks to 0db, and boosting the level via the compressor and limiter plug in provided with Cubase, but to no avail. I just end up with clipping or really no significant increase in volume. I tracked the song by recording everything live, removing the drums, then recording then rerecording them while listening back to the song, then overdubbing a second guitar part and vocals. The input levels seemed strong, the mics were as loud as I could get them with out overloading the preamps, and the individual channels are as loud as I can get them, while still having everything balanced. Or at least as balanced as I can get them.

Any ideas on improving my overall mix volume?

 

[TelePaul]

I've been working with a recording of my band made with my firepod and Cubase SE3. I have it sounding ok for a first attempt at a full mix, but I find when I send it to a .wav, or .aiff file to burn to cd, the level is very low. I've tried to boost the mix via normalizing all the tracks to 0db, and boosting the level via the compressor and limiter plug in provided with Cubase, but to no avail. I just end up with clipping or really no significant increase in volume. I tracked the song by recording everything live, removing the drums, then recording then rerecording them while listening back to the song, then overdubbing a second guitar part and vocals. The input levels seemed strong, the mics were as loud as I could get them with out overloading the preamps, and the individual channels are as loud as I can get them, while still having everything balanced. Or at least as balanced as I can get them.

Any ideas on improving my overall mix volume?

I'm very very new to this myself. But I'm prettys ure that normalizing is a bad idea, as is upping the levels. You should track quiet and start with a quieter mix. if you can export a quiet but balanced mix, you can add a master limiter to the final track...I use the freebie offered by Kjaerhouse audio. I'd stay away from the dynamics plug in as a means of upping the volume, it's not intended for that use. Normalizing will just ruin the subtlety of your mix.

 

[tubby]

Are you saying to export the mix. Put that back into Cubase as a full mix, then treat that with a master limiter?

 

[Ford Van]

Are you saying to export the mix. Put that back into Cubase as a full mix, then treat that with a master limiter?

That is a good start. Might not be the ultimate solution, but you can start with that.

You might need a bit of overall compression, eq, etc..to get the most potential out of your mix.

 

[Robert D]

Export it as a wave file and then have a look at that waveform. I'm guessing you will see a lot of spurious peaks all over it, well above the average program material. Those peaks are keeping you from getting decent loudness off the 2 buss without resorting to a buss limiter. Go back to the tracks and do some work on controlling those peaks at the track level. Once you have good dynamics but no over the top peaks in the mix you can export a decent stereo mix file. Then you can bring that back in and begin playing with some mastering for loudness, but go easy, and don't expect to get it to today's commercial release level without destroying the mix.
BTW, normalizing simply brings the peaks up to 0dbfs, or whatever you set it to. It doesn't (or shouldn't) do anything to change the dynamics.

 

[TelePaul]

Are you saying to export the mix. Put that back into Cubase as a full mix, then treat that with a master limiter?

Yeah. Go here:

www.kjaerhusaudio.com

Go to the 'classic' series and get the Classic Compressor and Classic Master Limiter (the other plug-ins are cool too). Import an new mix and you can use the 'pre-mastering' preset on the compressor. Then you can add the master limiter. Remember, an increase of 9 dB will be required to amke a song soudn twice as loud.

 

[tubby]

Thanks

When I get home tonight I'll try some of those ideas. I do not have a set of monitors at my disposal so mixing has been limited to a headphone affair, obviously not the best. I have another thread open addressing the issue of mixing in a small space and a request for some suggestions relating to that with some product recommendations, could any of you address that for me?

 

[jonnyc]

Sorry to jump in here but to me it's kind of silly to have to have a loud mix. Go back to cassette days and pick something on both cassette and cd and listen to the differences. Hell you can even pick up some cd's from the early 90's like say the black album by metallica and compare it to something like crossfade today and you'll hear a significant volume difference. I can crank the black album all the way up in my car but crossfade's latest can only go to about 3/4's before it becomes completely unlistenable. Now none of this probably matters to you because you simply want the volume so you can in some way feel comfortable with what you did so follow what other people here have told you and try to finesse the mix to a volume you're comfortable with. BTW, and I may be completely nuts here, but working with both PTLE and Cubase I've notice it's much easier to get my mixes huge sounding in PTLE. Anyone have a clue why this would be?

 

[jonnyc]

When I get home tonight I'll try some of those ideas. I do not have a set of monitors at my disposal so mixing has been limited to a headphone affair, obviously not the best. I have another thread open addressing the issue of mixing in a small space and a request for some suggestions relating to that with some product recommendations, could any of you address that for me?

Ahhh, headphones really kind of suck for mixing but if it's all you got what can you do. As far as mixing in a small space, get some quality 6" monitors and a hell of a lot of bass trapping and room treatment, that will be a great start to improving your overall mix.

 

[TelePaul]

Sorry to jump in here but to me it's kind of silly to have to have a loud mix. Go back to cassette days and pick something on both cassette and cd and listen to the differences. Hell you can even pick up some cd's from the early 90's like say the black album by metallica and compare it to something like crossfade today and you'll hear a significant volume difference. I can crank the black album all the way up in my car but crossfade's latest can only go to about 3/4's before it becomes completely unlistenable. Now none of this probably matters to you because you simply want the volume so you can in some way feel comfortable with what you did so follow what other people here have told you and try to finesse the mix to a volume you're comfortable with. BTW, and I may be completely nuts here, but working with both PTLE and Cubase I've notice it's much easier to get my mixes huge sounding in PTLE. Anyone have a clue why this would be?

Yeah, the fool-proof way to make your mix louder is turn up the stereo! I read an article on this in an everyday newspaper...it's the reason Shakira is louder than Zeppelin. I read it's to do with compression mostly, and the fact that songs are compressed further on terrestrial radio. I'm not sure I think it's silly to have loud mix...volume is fine, just not at the expense of the mix...god-damn you Normalize Function! Actually, I found alot of cool trial products on the Kjaerhus website, one of them includes an nice overview of volume maximising and master limiting.

 

[legionserial]

Limiting is the work of the devil... Well too much of it anyway. Try taking a nice classical piece, and cramming it through a master limiter to the sort of volumes they are forcing out of music these days. For some reason people don't seem to appreciate the contrast of quiet and loud anymore. A song with a lot of shifts in timbre doesn't have anywhere near as much impact when it's had the dynamics sucked out of it.

I've started to find I can't listen to anything that I didn't already have on tape years ago for too long anymore. I can sit and listen to the likes of old Megadeth, old Metallica, Nirvana, Hendrix etc, and crank the volume till the cows come home. But I put on something released in the last 5-10 years (probably more) and I find myself constantly turning it down more and more. Sometimes I turn the stereo on the next day and see how stupidly quiet the music was because the night before it had tired my ears out so much that things seemed loud enough to wake the neighbours.

It seems stupid to me. The music industry is trying to sell music to their consumers that is louder and louder, while HiFi companies are selling louder stereos for cheaper. We only need one of those things if we want to hear our music louder. And it ain't louder CD's.

 

[tubby]

Thanks for all the input. The mixes are what I would consider an unacceptable level to nearly everyone. To compare, if I listened to something in my car, say the Dave Mathews Band's "Before These Crowded Streets" album, which I consider to sound quite good, it would be at a level of 45 where as my mix on a cd has to be turned up to 60, causing a lot of signal to noise issues. I know those numbers are relative, but trust me, its a lot. I have the same issue with my home stereo when listening to the mix. With the different plug ins available, I was wondering what opinions any of you may have on the Waves Native Powerpack. It seems like it would get me moving in the right direction. If I invested in that and some Event Alp5's would I be making a good move?

 

[TelePaul]

Thanks for all the input. The mixes are what I would consider an unacceptable level to nearly everyone. To compare, if I listened to something in my car, say the Dave Mathews Band's "Before These Crowded Streets" album, which I consider to sound quite good, it would be at a level of 45 where as my mix on a cd has to be turned up to 60, causing a lot of signal to noise issues. I know those numbers are relative, but trust me, its a lot. I have the same issue with my home stereo when listening to the mix. With the different plug ins available, I was wondering what opinions any of you may have on the Waves Native Powerpack. It seems like it would get me moving in the right direction. If I invested in that and some Event Alp5's would I be making a good move?

Just another thing to remember, mixing and mastering are very different. I don't think you should be upping the master track in the mix in an attempt to match DMB; remember their CD has been to a professional Mastering House for this kind of thing. The studio Monitors are probably a better buy at this stage man, in my opinion...if your mix isn't good, no amount of volume will make it any easier on the ears.

 

[tubby]

I'm certainly not aspiring to a level that good. I'm just getting started on something that I've wanted to do from the time I was little. I was just hoping for a little bit extra. As far as mastering goes, I won't even pretend to know that black art, but sending the best mix possible to someone who does know how is something I'm shooting for. I know that mastering can't fix a poor mix, but a good mix helps mastering. Again, if anyone could take a look at my small space mixing thread in the mixing/mastering forum, any more info would help.

 

[TelePaul]

I'm certainly not aspiring to a level that good. I'm just getting started on something that I've wanted to do from the time I was little. I was just hoping for a little bit extra. As far as mastering goes, I won't even pretend to know that black art, but sending the best mix possible to someone who does know how is something I'm shooting for. I know that mastering can't fix a poor mix, but a good mix helps mastering. Again, if anyone could take a look at my small space mixing thread in the mixing/mastering forum, any more info would help.

I will but I'm no good at acoustic properties...but if you wanna try the limiters and compressors and let us know how ya get on, that's cool. If you get stuck, send me a copy of your mix and I'll run it through some of the freebies i got today. I love freebies.

 

[tubby]

OK, I bought a pair of KRK RP5's since I have a tiny mix space. (A local megastore just happened to have a deal where I got a free Auralex kit with the monitors) Then I tried using the free master limiter plugin suggested here. I think I may have used too much of the limiter on the loud version.

Here is a link to listen to the mixes two different mixes:

http://www.soundclick.com/bands/pagemusic.cfm?bandID=660549

Let me know what you think and how I can fix it. There are no vocals for the song just yet, we're just seeing what kind of results we can achieve with the equiptment we have. This was a one take shot, then I went back and overdubbed my drums.

 

[RAMI]

my mix on a cd has to be turned up to 60, causing a lot of signal to noise issues.

In that case, a limiter won't help you. It will also turn up the noise. You've got to figure out why you have a "signal to noise issue" way before you do your final mix. In fact, you should deal with it before even pressing "record" on a track.

 

[tubby]

The signal to noise issue is coming from dirty amplification I believe. When I listen through my monitors at home, there isn't a noise issue at higher volume leves, just when I have to crank my homestereo or my car stereo. Give the tracks a listen and see if you notice a noise issue.

Again I'm fairly new so I'm gonna miss some stuff. Feel free to tear my mix a new one, it's the only way I'll learn.

 

[gummblefish]

.it's the reason Shakira is louder than Zeppelin.

And She is 38.4% Hotter than all four of them.

Compare.

 

[Change of POETS]

The signal to noise issue is coming from dirty amplification I believe. When I listen through my monitors at home, there isn't a noise issue at higher volume leves, just when I have to crank my homestereo or my car stereo. Give the tracks a listen and see if you notice a noise issue.

Again I'm fairly new so I'm gonna miss some stuff. Feel free to tear my mix a new one, it's the only way I'll learn.

Honestly, the quiet version sounds fine. It's more in line with what I'd prefer to receive from a client for mastering, as oposed to your loud version.

I didn't hear any issues with noise either.